<\body> Stories in America: Conversations at the Gas Pump

Wednesday, August 17, 2005

Conversations at the Gas Pump

The average price of a gallon of regular gas here in Oklahoma is $2.20, which is an all-time high. Lucky for us, the further north we drive, the higher gas prices become. Yesterday unleaded gas in Bartlesville, OK, hit the $2.49 mark, but the high prices don't seem to be deterring people from driving. U.S. gas consumption -- which accounts for more than one-tenth of total world oil demand -- is projected to rise one percent this year, according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Yesterday we stopped at a gas station in Bartlesville to ask people why they think gas prices are so high. Bush got 70 percent of the vote here.

O.C. Ford, 79, Retired

Why do you think gas prices are so high?

Cause the oil companies are gaugin' us. They're going to continue gaugin' until the people quit drivin', but we're not goin' to quit drivin' cause we'll have to walk and I don't like to walk. If you had a ranch in Texas with oil, would you care how much money they were chargin'?

Are you from around here?

No, I'm from Kansas.

How much is gas in Kansas?

It's about 13 cents higher. At least.

Wayne Yeazal, 45 and His Mother Twila Yeazal, 67

Why do you think gas prices are so high?

Wayne Yeazal: The economy and the government. The owners of the oil companies are greedy.

Do you think high prices cause people to drive less or does it just get them angry?

Wayne Yeazal: It gets them angry.

Twila Yeazal: I don't go any further than I have to. We live out in the country and we drive 30 miles from here to there. You either gotta let your medicine go, your gas go or your utilities or your food. I've been letting food go and going to churches to get food. That's the only way we can make it.

Are you seeing more people at church asking for food?

Twila Yeazal: Yes. There's a whole bunch of 'em that give out food cause our income can't make it. There are four adults living in our house. Me and my husband, my son and my sister. We're all disabled. They're just starting to draw social security and it's been hard.

What do you think about Bush's social security plan?

Twila Yeazal: I think he's nuts. He better leave us alone. He gives everybody tax breaks, but he doesn't help the poor people. Poor people ain't got nothin'. We had to build us a new home because we lived in two trailer houses put together. We tried to fix them, but they were too old. Our new house is electric. Before that we used propane, electric and water. Now we're just using electric, so I don't know what our bill is going to be like. Our propane bill was so darn high, we couldn't afford it.

Are people able to find jobs in this area?

Twila Yeazal: Not a whole lot.

Wayne Yeazal: There are jobs for teenagers at fast food places, but no one can live off of $6 an hour.

Twila Yeazal: My other son is a truck driver and he can't make it on his salary.

Wayne Yeazal: I was a truck driver until I got hurt. I had a bunch of surgeries and had a $300,000 bill. There's no way I can pay for that. I'm on Medicaid and only make $400 a month from social security.

Do you vote?

Twila Yeazal: No. I don't like the government.

Wayne Yeazal: I don't vote. I don't pay attention.

Melvin Martin, 59, Part-Time Building Inspector

Why do you think gas prices are so high?

Pure greed and because they can get away with it. They're trying to see how much people will pay for gas. People will pay just about anything for gas except now that it's so high, people are starting to cancel their vacations. Mainly it's political. You got oil men in the White House after all. You know, Bush and Cheney are a bunch of oil men and they'll sock it to you every time. They don't care. They don't care about the people. Never did. It's so high now that if it drops back down to $2.10 or $2.20 everybody's gonna be dancing around saying, 'Oh boy, it's only $2.10 a gallon.' That's totally ridiculous. It's all about rich men and poor men. Poor men like me are pumpin' gas and rich men are on vacation telling lies.

You're not a fan of Bush?

No. I was lied to in Nam and he's lying to the people about the Iraqi thing and the oil thing. The Gulf of Tonken was a lie. Weapons of mass destruction was a pure lie. Young men and women are dyin' for nothin'. Afghanistan was a righteous cause. We should have sent all these men and women over there and gotten bin Laden, cut his head off and come home. Did they? No. We're over there losing people for nothin'. Eventually we'll pull out of that country and it'll be total anarchy anyway.

Bush is popular in this state.

Yeah, unfortunately. Big oil is around here, so sure, he's popular. He'll lie and people will believe him.

Kerry didn't win one county in this state.

Yeah, he's too intelligent for them I guess.

What's the economy like in this area?

The economy is real poor. On TV, they say, 'Look at all these jobs.' They are minimum wage jobs. People are losing jobs. I got laid off in '99. I've been trying to make it ever since. I have three college degrees, but I don't know enough people.

What'd you do?

I was a building inspector for an insurance company. I made a nice living for a quarter of a century. When you get laid off, it's a big shocker. All of a sudden, you got no money coming in. If you're in your 50s and 60s, they're not gonna hire you to do anything. They won't even hire you to sweep the floor. People laid off my age have to get two or three different part-time jobs.

What are you doing now?

I do part-time building inspections and my wife went back to work as a teacher. Without that, we would have lost the house.

Do you have health insurance?

I get it through the VA and a clinic in Tulsa. If it wasn't for that, we'd get sick and just stay home and hurt. Or die.

What advice would you give the candidates who run in the next election?

Tell it like it is. Keep it honest. Focus on what people are interested in which is high gas prices, people dying overseas and social security which they're trying to take away. Important things. Not the garbage the Republicans throw at us.

Where do you get your news?

I watch a little CNN. I read the local paper, which is totally Republican and biased. I read the Tulsa paper, which is a little better. I listen to the radio.

Mary Fowler, 54, Housekeeper

Why do you think gas prices are so high?

From what I've read, they say it's because of the Iraq war. I've also read about alternatives to gas and even automobiles that use alternatives, but for some reason, the big oil companies bought up the patents for that, so it's not just the Iraq war and it's not President Bush's fault. He gets blamed for everything, but it's not his fault. It's just greed from other people. I feel like the president is doing everything he can to help.

Like what?

For one thing, he is protecting our country by being in Iraq. We can't pull out too soon because they'll think we're chicken and they'll try to attack us again. We can't pull out until they're able to fend for themselves. Those who are strong are supposed to help those who are weak. We are strong and we're that way for a reason. We've always been peacemakers. As long as we keep the peace, we'll be blessed.

So you believe we're acting as peacemakers in Iraq?

Yes and we're protecting the innocent. Muslims want to rule the world. They want to take over the whole world. That's their evil purpose.

Do you know any Muslims?

I've ministered to them. A few lived in my apartment building and they invited us over for dinner. I went with a Christian guy. They were nice. The food was nice. At the end, we said, 'Can we pray for you?' And they said yes, if we can pray for you. We prayed for the peace of god. Most of them are very harsh. There's no tenderness or love.

Do a lot of Muslims live in this area? Have you met any others besides the ones who invited you over for dinner?

Most of them live in Tulsa.

Why do you think we're in Iraq? People say we're freeing the Iraqis one minute and then change their opinion and say they're horrible people.

Soldiers over there say we don't get half the news. There's so much good going on. The majority of the people appreciate the help. The majority, not the weirdos who are deceived.

Where do you get your information about the war?

The Bible and the 700 Club. I also listen to preachers who know what's going on. Pat Robertson.

What do you like about Bush?

He's a praying man of god. He's a family man and he does care. He gets blamed for everything. If this country would turn back to god, things would get better. You can't go on killing babies and allowing homosexual stuff to stay. We do love the people, but we don't love their actions.

Do you think talking about homosexuality does anything to improve healthcare or poverty?

I guess for me I've always had to trust the lord for the next job, which is usually housecleaning. If you have your eyes on him, he'll take care of you. The government can't help us.

Do you always vote?

Yes, I volunteered for the Republican Party and I enjoyed it very much.

Have you always been Republican?

When I first registered, I was a Democrat. Just from studying in school, I thought that's what I wanted to be because I believed in government for the people, b


At 8/17/2005 2:01 PM, Blogger morticia said...

I'm sure Mary Fowler is a sweet person, but the level of critical analysis of complex issues that she reveals in this interview makes me want to tear my hair in frustration.

At 8/17/2005 3:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for this wonderful series, Rose. Very insightful, and without any rancor. I too am very frustrated at Mary Fowler's attitudes. I think Democrats need to accept the fact that the last election really did reflect a rise in the self-described "values voters" such as Mary Fowler. I don't know what to advise the Democrats to do, precisely, but I wonder why they aren't talkikng long & loud about "Christianity, Crawford style" such as what's taken place this past week regarding Cindy Sheehan. On Sunday morning, during "Camp Casey";s prayer service, a local fired off a shotgun; worse, after dark, someone destroyed the white crosses commemorating fallen soldiers. Why aren't Christians on both sides of the aisle railing against this? Why aren't the media pundits talking about these incididents ? Where is the outrage? Rose, are you going to Crawford to interview Cindy's group & the counter-protestors? Thanks again for this thoughtful series of articles.

At 8/18/2005 2:43 PM, Blogger storiesinamerica said...

Thanks for the comments. I removed the ads and will keep an eye out for them from now on. re: Crawford. We thought about driving down to do interviews, but it's out of the way. We were in Crawford in May and had a great time. Here's the link: http://storiesinamerica.blogspot.com/2005/05/white-house-press-corps.html
The LoneStar-Iconoclast has the best coverage:
We're now in Liberal, KS! We just spent the day in Guymon, OK interviewing people about the economy and high gas prices. We met a lot of angry Bush voters. I hope to transcribe those interviews soon.


At 8/19/2005 7:26 AM, Anonymous Mary Fowler said...

To Morticia,
Thank you for the compliment. As for my level of critical analysis of complex issues, do me a favor.
Go to www.wallbuilders.com and read research done by Texan, David Barton. Also www.hilton-sutton.org, this minister has done extensive research on what the Bible says about the end-time nations and their role and America as a nation of peacemakers. There are many men of God such as Rod Parsley, D.James Kennedy, Pat Robertson, just to name a few who, can put it more eloquently in terms you may understand. All these people have answers for people's dilemmas that come from the Loving Creator of this world. As in any household there are rules laid down by the head of those houses. God is the boss of this world. He's like the wise loving parents who lay down rules to protect their children from those things that are detrimental to their well-being. If you were like most children or teens, there were times you thought you were smarter than your parents and broke the rules anyway. If you were allowed to reap the consequences of those actions, hopefully it was a lesson learned that parents were indeed wiser than you.
When God said it was an "abomination" for a man to lust after another man, and woman to do the same, He says this because He is the wise Father of us all, and does know what is best for us. Aides is a compensation in thier bodies for their disobedience and rebellion to the way God intended. And it breaks His heart for anyone to suffer with that, but He has the cure for those who will call out to Him, turn from the thing that brought on the curse and allow Him to heal, restore, or give them the assurance that if they did pass on, they would enter into Heaven with Him, instead of Hell with those who chose to hang on to thier disobedience and rebellion.
If you really desire to see what God is truly like please visit my favorite, www.Revival.com and watch a live broadcast or an archive.

At 8/19/2005 8:00 AM, Anonymous Mary Fowler said...

Apparently some things were lost in translation and sometimes it's easier for me to express how I feel by writing. I think you will understand that, Rose. I was not implying that homosexuality alone was the cause of America's problems. Abortion, pornography,lack of respect of God and His Word, these all contribute to the downfall of any nation or people.

You seemed to not want to mention the nations I cited for some reason. Haiti, Africa, and Iraq are the nations I gave as an example of those who turned from God to do as they wanted. Haiti made a pact with Satan to serve him, up until this last election when a Christian man was elected. Witchcraft and satanism are directly in opposition to the Word of God. Take that up with Him, I didn't make that rule. Haiti and Africa were nations of paganism, witchcraft, false religions and other forms of idolotry. As for Iraq and other nations with muslim religions, most seem to serve an Allah that is so opposite to the Loving God of Christianity. If you study the Old Testament, you can see that whenever the children of Israel would turn from God and go after other gods, the curses of lack, disease, and no peace would always accompany that decision. God, like the Loving Parent He is, weeps over the pain and suffering they endure because of their disobedience. He waits with open arms for them to return to Him and restores their fortunes, health and peace when they turn from their evil ways and choose to obey Him with all their hearts. God is a God of love! Read the Bible starting in Matthew in the New Testament. The four gospels are where my eyes were opened to see the love of Jesus and the Love of Father God. Thank you.

At 8/19/2005 8:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And 150 years ago, all the arguments made against homosexuals by Mary and others were made as reasons for keeping blacks as slaves.

I'm sure there are a lot of statements in the Bible that Mary doesn't follow, such as Deuteronomy 22:28-29 or Exodus 21:4, for instance.

At 8/19/2005 9:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think this demonstrates very clearly that we must figure out a way to get the disenfranchised people to the polls. The poor couple who said they don't vote is a prime example, they don't believe their vote will make a difference. We need to figure out how to reach people like that.

At 8/19/2005 9:39 AM, Anonymous Mary Fowler said...

Would you care to elaborate on your statement. I am against slavery of any kind, including, women and children. These are affected in other nations by evil men who make women and children sex slaves.This is happening in India and other nations.
I do not see how you are comparing black slavery with homosexuality. Blacks didn't choose to be slaves, it was forced upon them by others. This is true with some homosexuals, they are molested by someone with that spirit or looking for the love of a mother or father, they lacked in childhood. Some choose to remain that way due to feeling they were made that way. But when you get down to what God says, it's wrong. There is healing and deliverance,just like there was emacipation for the slaves.

At 8/19/2005 10:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary, all the reputable authorities on the subject have said homosexuality is a matter of wiring, not choice. And we can prove this with a simple exercise.

If God had been silent on the subject, would you right now go out and have sex with another woman? If not, why not? Maybe it's because you're genetically predispositioned to like men instead. Well, between two and five percent of the population is wired the other way, and just as you find the concept of having sex with someone the same sex distasteful, they feel the same way about having sex with someone the opposite sex. AND GOD MADE THEM THAT WAY.

If homosexuality is a choice, so is heterosexuality, which means you're as gay as RuPaul. And I don't think you'd like to argue that's the case, would you?

The same biblical quotes used to condemn homosexual actions (all but one of which regard male-male interaction; apparently lesbians need less supervision) are in the same places where eating pork is forbidden (Leviticus) and women not covering their heads when they pray (Corinthians). Are you also condemning the Hormel Corporation? Have you started a "Bring your hair back to God" campaign? If not, you're dealing with a case of "mote and beam" disease, I'm afraid. You cannot say for sure you know the mind of God, and know which offense is worse in His sight, so you cannot claim on one hand that homosexuality is an abomination but a woman who puts herself before a man to teach him is not. Otherwise, you're picking and choosing what is true from the Bible and what is not, and you have no basis to argue that those of us who see the prohibitions against homosexuality as outdated artifacts of an ancient culture cannot do the same. Sorry pot, but kettle's on the phone and all.

And finally, there's the Constitution to consider (that nasty little document the ACLU people keep trying to see upheld). Freedom of religion, that amendment that means you have the right to practice in your church as you see fit without government intervention? Also means your religion cannot be used as a basis to make legislation, for the sake of the rest of the people who don't practice your particular flavor of Christianity.

I know a lot of Christians who are gay. They tend to think the "Feed the hungry and clothe the poor" parts from the Gospels are the important bits. As Mr. Bush has consistently cut funding (and is planning on cutting more funding) for programs that primarily benefit poor people (Medicaid, Social Security, Welfare --- whose primary recipients are poor mothers and their children), while cutting taxes that primarily affect rich people (the estate tax, which is he gung-ho to abolish, only affects people who have more than $1.5 million in assets and will mean a windfall of approximately $700k for him personally if he gets it passed before his parents die) I can only imagine he skipped those parts of his Bible when he mysteriously became Christian immediately before pursuing a political career in Texas.

But maybe that's just me.

- Anon in Chicago

At 8/19/2005 10:08 AM, Blogger Tom Chong said...

Mary, I completely respect your beliefs. I understand the faith behind them, I think Christian values are sorely lacking in many aspects of American society. But I have to say you are very misinformed about the facts of current events. You cannot have an accurate picture of what's really going on unless you make the effort to hear multiple points of view, and that just will not happen if you are getting your news and opinions from the 700 club and the bible (which also can be open to interpretation, one could argue being a homosexual is just one way of "loving thy neighbor as you do yourself").

Free choice is a gift from God, but if you shelter yourself inside a cocoon of Republican opinion, you are not exercising this right to choose.

The majority of republican organizations and their representatives are consistent with one view on everything, and if you aren't researching opposing or alternate views, it's like a diet of all red meat and no veggies/fruits.
You will end up with intellectual constipation, unable or unwilling to change your habits even when things don't look quite the way the people around are saying they do.

At 8/19/2005 10:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You asked me to elaborate (although Anon in Chicago did a good job).

I'm not saying you're racist (although some of your statements from the interview regarding Muslims make me wonder since you seem to say they're all evil, except the ones you've actually met). What I'm saying is that proponents of slavery in the nineteenth century based their arguments on the Bible and many of those arguments are now being applied to homosexuals.

At 8/19/2005 10:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

rose, you're wonderful. I found you through the Daily Chimp. You are living my fantasy life for me so I have contributed to keep it going. Magnificent stuff, and I just LOVE the photos. Keep on telling it like it IS!

3 bows,


At 8/19/2005 11:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary, I would also like to point out that the strong majority of our Founding Fathers were not Christians but Deists, and most, like Jefferson, did not believe in the divinity of Christ, but admired his morality. This simple fact is lost on people who think that the "under God" on our currency and public buildings refers to their interpretation of Christianity. Here's a start for your research.


By the way, Lev 19:19 also tells us that farmers who interplant their crops shall be put to death by stoning - watch out what you do with your garden! Oh, and there's also that pesky little Deut 22 passage that says a woman is not telling the truth if she says she was raped but no one heard her scream. And in Genesis, if no suitable males for marriage are to be found, it's OK to get your dad drunk and tag-team with your sisters, even if dear old dad has offered you & your sisters up as sex toys to other men. Yes, the bible, source of all morality...


At 8/19/2005 11:40 AM, Anonymous Tom Stevens, The Nez Master said...

Mary Fowler is not hte problem. It's the Tweazil's that are the problem. Good people who know what's wrong, know what's going on, know we are getting screwed, and letting the mary fowlers of the world decide our fate. I believe there are far more Tweazil's than Fowlers, but how to make them DO SOMETHING.

At 8/19/2005 11:53 AM, Anonymous Angry Guy7 said...


I think that you have a worldview that is quite literally equivalent to the Taliban - a world obsessed with sexuality and power, guided by books that are nothing more than the parables written by men who were, in all probability, mentally ill.

What other explanation can there be for the selective application of the "law of god" when it comes to homesexuals and other issues that seem to get all of you Christiban types worked up?

The inherent contradiction in your words and actions comes from the deep flaws in the structure of the bible itself. If you are so crazy as to suspend any rational, critical thinking and think that the mis-translated, highly edited stories that make up the Bible are in any way "divine" or "true" then you really have no way to think clearly on any subject at all, and your opinion is moot.

It's too bad you're allowed to vote, because your so-called "values vote" that put GW Bush in office is in part responsible for the deaths of hundreds of children in Iraq. the blood is on your hands, Mary, not mine. I'm no fan of Kerry, and I voted for him with some disgust, but at least Kerry had some semblence of rational thought, unlike your boy George.

The REALITY is that religious nuts like you - christibans, islamists even radical jews - and those who support them - have been the cause of more death and suffering in history than all wars combined.

Now we're fighting a religious war again - in Iraq - so dullards like you who somehow associate 9/11 with Iraq - despite all the evidence proving that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 - can kill muslims by proxy.

Your pre-programmed capacity for doublethink caused by the mental illness called "religion" allows you to see the facts and totally ignore them. This is because your much-vaunted "faith" has so scrambled whatever critical thinking skills you might have once been capable of that any bullshit that a man in authority feeds you to "prove" a point that contradicts the observed facts is readily absorbed.

But don't worry your silly little woman's mind with complicated "facts" - men like Pat Robertson and George Bush will tell you what you think, ok?

Quite honestly, the most dangerous thing in America today isn't Muslim terrorists, it's white evangelical christians who, wrongly, think that the United States of America is "christian" nation and have so warped real christian values - like tolerance, acceptance, minstering to the sick, helping the poor - that what's left is a terrifying vision of a misogynistic, racist and homophobic nation with slaves and a servant class.

For all of you cretins like Mary Fowler who are looking for a return to the "values" of the 1950's, when blacks were lynched, women were "girls" in the workforce, gays were shot and the poor died in the streets, I say that you're world is one I don't want to live in.

The "values" of the christiban are objectively wrong. They are against nature, against human rights, they are ultimately against freedom. They represent a desire for a fascist government and a lack of actual freedom of thought and lifestyle.

If you've read this far, I'm sure in your tiny little brain you're picturing some thin gay man who lives in a city "fornicating" and recuiting children to a sick and perverted lifestyle.

That's because you've been programmed to think that way. In fact, I'm a happily married dad, with two kids, I drive a red pickup truck, I own a bunch of guns, I'm a volunter fireman, I live in a rural area, I drink beer and I look at porn now and then. Just like a regular "christian" huh?

Get you head out of your ass, get out of your church and see what the world is really like.

At 8/19/2005 12:08 PM, Blogger morticia said...

C'mon now, let's not call Mary names. That's bad form, unnecessary, and she doesn't deserve it.

Anonymous, you're doing a fine job. I don't have your patience, so I'll butt out, except to say to Mary: You and I are like two people, one speaking Finnish and the other speaking Czechoslovakian, over a bad cell phone connection during a lightning storm with jets taking off overhead. There will be no communication. You live in a world of superstition which you accept as fact. I don't. The day I turn to Pat Robertson or any of his ilk to help me "understand" anything will be the day you make burnt offerings to Zeus.

At 8/19/2005 12:52 PM, Anonymous prof fate said...


Why don't you check out this Google search

"pat robertson" diamonds

and then get back to us about this man of God?

Everything you say makes it crystal clear that the one thing which really terrifies you is the lack of a "boss" to relieve you of the painful necessity of using your God-given ability to think for yourself.

That's ok: As a free human being, you are certainly allowed to flush your frontal lobes down the toilet.

"When they first started the country, those that didn't believe in Jesus were put in jail." (And I'll bet you just wet yourself with joy at the prospect of bringing back those "good old days".)

Don't kid yourself: The Founding Fathers would have regarded your brand of absolutist theocracy with fear and distaste. They may have given you the right to hold these monstrous beliefs, but that doesn't imply you should have the right to enslave another.

What is it with you? What mental twist is it that makes you so you're not content merely to practice the things you believe, but also feel this deadly compulsion to make the rest of us conform?

Here's my guess: Deep down, you hate and despise the very concept of freedom. Though you claim certainty, you're really so unsure of the path you've chosen that you cannot abide contradiction.

With apologies to morticia, I don't think you're a sweet person at all. You'd gladly see other human beings imprisoned, tortured and murdered for the most trivial behavior, indeed, for anything that makes you "uncomfortable".

At 8/19/2005 1:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

how can be sure that mary is the real mary in the story?...just a thought

At 8/19/2005 1:20 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Well, we can't, but if she's not, she (or he!) is doing a perfect, consistent impersonation for all of us to bounce off of. Remember the "My America" columnist "Ed Anger" in the Weekly World News? The perpetually pissed-off flag-waving redneck male chauvinist pig? Turns out that the guy behind it was a literate, educated wag just having some fun.

At 8/19/2005 2:00 PM, Anonymous Miles said...

I posted this on Daily Kos. I admire your interviews (first time I've seen them) and I want to say thanks for giving Mary Fowler a voice.

In documenting an actual dialogue between two people of different view points you are giving expression to true "liberalism" which is ultimately about dialogue and mutual respect.

Bad stuff comes from one way communication. She's plugged into the 700 Club and to the interpreters of the Bible who say the word goes in one direction from the source to you. TV is perfect vehicle for this kind of message because it never listens.

But the world changes when people talk, in dialogue. You were initiating a change process by asking Mary questions and facilitating conversation.

The secret to changing the world is to exist in dialogue with people we disagree with. Ask them questions, and listen to their answers. Then encourage them to ask us questions. Look at the difference between right wing blogs with no comments and left wing blogs with comments. The left (and rationality) stem from and promote dialogue. The right (and irrationality) stem from authority, one way communication, "hear and accept" modalities.

There is emotional connectedness and reality in conversation, such as you document.

Mary learns about her world from the interpretations of the bible offered to her by others, from the 700 Club. She's in one way authority acceptance mode and as a result she's lost her humanity. Did her school and social world ever allow her to come fully in to it in the first place? Yet by interviewing her you were bringing her just a little bit closer to her humanity because you were engaging her in dialogue.

Mary isn't a bad person. She just hasn't had enough opportunities to say what she believes in a dialogue context, and listen to the responses, and fully understand her relationship to other people. She probably hasn't had a chance to meet on an ongoing basis with people who are different from her and understand how they feel when she says various things.

I understand her and many on the right as victims of the one-way-ness of the communications they receive. One way communication is endemic to life in 21st century America. I understand her as a person immersed in a world of one way communication, as the recipient of ideas, instead of the articulator of questions and seeker of understandings. She is the kind of person who is created by a world with insufficient dialogue.

You put her in dialogue for a brief moment and this is an admirable thing.

At 8/19/2005 6:20 PM, Anonymous Mary Fowler said...

LOL, I am getting a big laugh out of you guys using those 50 dollar words to condone your sin. Keep on, you are just convincing me of how much this nation needs Revival.

At 8/19/2005 6:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Laughing won't help Mary. It's time to use whatever brains "God" gave you. Please?

At 8/19/2005 7:29 PM, Anonymous Michelle said...

Hey person i think u need to open the bible and read the TRUTH this is to the person that said mary needs to use her brains..... DO U HAVE BRAINS?

At 8/19/2005 7:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Leviticus 18:22-29 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people.

At 8/19/2005 7:47 PM, Anonymous Michelle I... said...


At 8/19/2005 7:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

We are SO doomed ...

At 8/19/2005 7:51 PM, Anonymous Mary Fowler said...

Prof fate,
I would be glad to do that google search. I'll make a deal with you. Before I go there, I want you to go to the sites I listed, at least 10 times and sit down and read, listen or watch without doing anything else, then tell me what you learned. Then I will go to the google search you suggested.

At 8/19/2005 7:52 PM, Anonymous Michelle I said...


At 8/19/2005 8:00 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Oh, the malicious salivating glee with which the bible thumpers warn us of our descent into hell! They love the prospect of our sizzling, writhing flesh and our howls of agony for all eternity so much, they just can't conceal their happiness! And who can blame them? Do fifty-dollar words get YOU all worked up? Here's a hundred-and-fifty, maybe a two-hundred-dollar word for you:
Schadenfreude. Y'all have a bad case of it. You should maybe see a doctor.

At 8/19/2005 8:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation

2 Peter 3
1BELOVED, I am now writing you this second letter. In [both of] them I have stirred up your unsullied (sincere) mind by way of remembrance,
2That you should recall the predictions of the holy (consecrated, dedicated) prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior [given] through your apostles (His special messengers).

3To begin with, you must know and understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, [people who] walk after their own fleshly desires

4And say, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the forefathers fell asleep, all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.

5For they willfully overlook and forget this [fact], that the heavens [came into] existence long ago by the word of God, and the earth also which was formed out of water and by means of water,

6Through which the world that then [existed] was deluged with water and perished.(A)

7But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been stored up (reserved) for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.

8Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.(B)

9The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people's conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish (pass away) with a thunderous crash, and the [[a]material] elements [of the universe] will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

11Since all these things are thus [b]in the process of being dissolved, what kind of person ought [each of] you to be [in the meanwhile] in consecrated and holy behavior and devout and godly qualities,

12While you wait and earnestly long for (expect and hasten) the coming of the day of God by reason of which the flaming heavens will be dissolved, and the [[c]material] elements [of the universe] will flare and melt with fire?(C)

13But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise, in which righteousness (uprightness, freedom from sin, and right standing with God) is to abide.(D)

14So, beloved, since you are expecting these things, be eager to be found by Him [at His coming] without spot or blemish and at peace [in serene confidence, [d]free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].

15And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [[e]His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation ([f]that which is conducive to the soul's safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him,

16Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [g]utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

17Let me warn you therefore, beloved, that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked [persons and] fall from your own [present] firm condition [your own steadfastness of mind].

18But grow in grace (undeserved favor, spiritual strength) and [h]recognition and knowledge and understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him [be] glory (honor, majesty, and splendor) both now and to the day of eternity. Amen (so be it)!

At 8/19/2005 8:13 PM, Anonymous MARY FOWLER said...

On the contrary morticia, I cry and weep over the lost and yearn just as Jesus does for all to receive His gift to them of salvation from hell and promise of eternal life in Heaven. For Jesus to suffer at calvary for the sins of us all, was the greatest love gift anyone has ever provided.

At 8/19/2005 8:40 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Actually, Mary, I wasn't referring to you. Like I said at the beginning of all this, I think you're a nice person. But "michelle i" has made it plain that she's a sick cookie. Go back and read her posts with an objective eye, and you'll see what I mean. Just a little too much triumphant gloating for a "Christian." By the way, I checked the Google sites on your boy Pat Robertson. Recommended reading. He's a piece of work!

At 8/19/2005 8:52 PM, Anonymous jack said...


I don't beleive that God cares that much about homosexuality. There are just too many bigger problems and issues in the world for Him to care about. And I think He is too forgiving to take out His anger at homosexuals (what very little he has) on the country at large.

Now, I do know that Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace. So I don't believe that fighting in Iraq is the will of Christ. He will forgive us for fighting in Afghanistan, because our enemies were there. But we'll be a long time doing penance for invading Iraq.

At 8/19/2005 8:56 PM, Anonymous Mary said...

Same goes for you Morticia, I dare you to go to the sites I mentioned at least 10 times, watching, not walking around or talking on the phone, and tell me then what u have learned. Then I will check out the google search. Michelle is one of those red hot, on fire for Jesus, radically saved believers and preaches it like she feels.

At 8/19/2005 9:00 PM, Anonymous Michelle I said...

Hey person ,
No I will not be your woman i am married to Jesus take it up with him right now i pray God will get a hold of you I pray you will get help that you need in Jesus name . Hallelujah Glory to God!!! I am a child of God

At 8/19/2005 9:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I freaking love Bush. What man could invade a country that wasn't a threat, have gas prices soar to record highs, the economy struggling to stay afloat on
wal mart jobs, tell us that he has to go on with his life when talking about a grieving mother camped outside his house, and he gets away with it!

If you want to learn what he has taught politicians for the future it is to wear a cross around your neck, send biblical messages in your speech, and find a messge (doesn't matter whether it is true or not) and repeat it ad nauseam until the sheep learn it.. Also get yourself a 24/7 news channel and total dominance on radio to propogate your propaganda..

As for what you are going to find in the red states, as a red state occupant, these people are just stupid. They are afraid to critically think for themselves so they turn to the 700 club, or whatever other person they think will lead them to enlightenment, and they are will follow those persons no matter how repulsive their actions may be.. They should be referred to as they are, the American taliban.

At 8/19/2005 9:04 PM, Anonymous Michelle I said...


At 8/19/2005 9:22 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Mary, I just recently finished the great Christian writer C.S. Lewis' SURPRISED BY JOY, without walking around or talking on the phone at all! Now, there's a book I'd like to talk to you about. Will you read it and get back to me?

At 8/19/2005 9:24 PM, Anonymous Mary said...

Your accusations of me not thinking for myself are totally wrong. I get most of my wisdom from God's Word on my own, then I am led by Him to others with the same wisdom they obtained by reading the bible on their own also. Go to the Proverbs, which are penned by the wisest and richest man that ever lived, Solomon. Try reading the Bible for yourself and let that glorious light shine forth to you, just as it did for me 28 years ago. Except for the grace of God, I would be as confused, lost, hurting, angry, and spiritually blind as many of you are. Like Paul wrote, I desire to know nothing, except Jesus Christ and Him crucified and to know the fellowship of His suffering. His suffering, was persecution by the religious, rejection by the very people He was sent to save and deliver, and wanting so much to protect those He loved from harm only to see them stubbornly turn their backs on Him. "If you are insulted because of the Name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgement to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

At 8/19/2005 9:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary I just finished reading the book The Plague by Albert Camus. I think you would enjoy it so I reer it to you.

At 8/19/2005 9:53 PM, Blogger morticia said...

So, Mary, will you read SURPRISED BY JOY?

At 8/19/2005 10:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vocabulary words are like evolution: just because a person isn't bright enough to understand what's being said does not make it untrue.

- Anon in Chicago

At 8/19/2005 10:23 PM, Anonymous Sean M said...

Madame Fowler,
I would like to ask you one question. Please forgive me for using the words that compose the question in their technical theological sense.

Is the King James Bible the literal, inerrant, infallible word of God ?

At 8/19/2005 10:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I get most of my wisdom from God's Word on my own, then I am led by Him to others with the same wisdom they obtained by reading the bible on their own also.

and around, and around and around she goes ...

angryguy7 @ 11:53 -- bravo!

At 8/19/2005 10:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not reading anything. I need undisputed proof that this "god" that you speak of exists. You're faith is blinding you and everyone who believes. Not matter what the zealots refer to it as there is no god, no savior. If there was the world would not be in the condition that it is.
got proof?

At 8/20/2005 12:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It seems odd that no one is pointing out that Bartlesville, OK, was the home of the Phillips Petroleum Company for about 75 years. Only when Conoco purchased it (to become ConocoPhillips) did the headquarters move from Bartlesville to Houston, TX.

The entire oil company filter very much affects Bartlesville politics, as someone passing through might not know.

At 8/20/2005 12:56 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I saw the theory on kos sometime ago that people like mary pat themselves on their back for being "martyrs" and being financial failures by voting for republicans. I don't express it well but it's something to the effect of " I am not doing well not because I am screwed by anybody(tax policy) or my lack of education/ambition but hey I am super moral and I vote for repubs because of their moral values"

At 8/20/2005 4:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, I just want to point out to Mary that in Sweden, a land with total acceptance of gays and gay union, a place where the bible is almost totally irrelevant, and also a socialist state which you apparently dislike, Poverty is a tiny fraction of what the US has, AIDs prevalence is a tiny fraction of what the US has, and all people, gay or straight, have access to completely free healthcare.

How do you figure that works out? It's similar for Europe in general. We're all completely non-religous to compared to the majority of Americans, but AIDs, poverty and sickness are not problems here compared to the United states.

Does God prefer Europeans?

At 8/20/2005 6:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder if some of you aren't taking the wrong message from the Mary Fowler interview.

Mary, I'm sorry if I seem to be talking about you in third person, and you're reading this, but I'm trying to see where we Dems are missing the boat. Bear with me, :)

The Republicans have done a great job of creating authority figures, people that can be trusted by the base, people that create an alternate version of what American morals are supposed to be, an alternate vision of the true state of the world, one that is at odds with what the rest of us perceive.

Mary listens to Pat Robertson and believes what he tells her, because he is a trusted figure. The fact that Pat Robertson is also a politically active conservative is almost a secondary matter. Trust has been established. And so Pat (and also people like Rush and Bush) seek people's trust and create an alternate reality where things are going okay in Iraq, homosexuals are taking over the country, and godless people are kicking God out of the schools.

I doubt we can get Mary back as a Democrat anytime soon, but we can learn from the tactics of the Republicans.

We don't have this infrastructure. We don't have organs like Fox that work 24 hours a day to create false and biased news consistent with the Republican party line. We don't have talk radio to reinforce it. And we don't have the money and the determination to create the same infrastructure. We operate at a huge disadvantage and need to recognize it and change things.

Mary is gone to us, but there are others that we can bring into our fold if we work at it.

At 8/20/2005 6:50 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In Sweden, give it time. Sin is pleasurable for a season, then it bites like a snake.

Sir Sean,
The Bible in any version, that sticks with the literal translation of Hebrew/Chaldee for the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament, is the inerrant Word of God, given by God, as he breathed upon them by His Spirit. The King James uses Elizabethan english spoken in England. The newer translations of NIV, Amplified, New King James, are using our english in America, thus making it easier for us to understand. Jesus was Hebrew and did not speak Elizabethan but the Hebrew language and Aramaic.

I will look for that book, and see what it's all about. Thank you for the reccomendation.

Theories are just that, theory until proven to be fact. Psalms 1 tells us, "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, or stand in the way the sinners do, or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight (the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly) is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night." We as God's children choose not to pollute ourselves with ungodly wisdom. When you have THE TRUTH, THE WAY, AND THE LIFE, who is Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, we don't need stuff manufactured by men influenced by avenues that are against The TRUTH!! You know, once you find that truth, you no longer have that driving hunger to search for something to fill that void.
Evolution's theory was proven to be more difficult to believe than Creation. Darwin admitted that on his death bed and was overwhelmed at how many bought the lie.

At 8/20/2005 6:52 AM, Anonymous Mary said...

oooooops, I pushed the wrong button, that was me, Mary, not anon

At 8/20/2005 6:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon who wants proof,
I pray that the blinders on your spiritual eyes be removed now in the Name of Jesus, and for Him to reveal Himself to you in such a way that you will never forget.

At 8/20/2005 7:14 AM, Anonymous anonymous gay person said...

Mary et al,
We are not taking over the country. I would have noticed. Many of us would like to be able to get married,if we find the right person. This does not involve heterosexuals. Most of us want equality...then we want to be left alone. We do not contaminate the soil. We do not recruit. We would prefer not to be whacked upside our heads with baseball bats by folks who listen to Pat Robertson.
As for myself, I just wish I could get enrolled in my partner's health insurance, instead of having none at all. I'm really not out to bring down western civilization. I promise.

At 8/20/2005 7:39 AM, Anonymous figmo said...

Mary, if your name really is Mary,

The Darwin recanting on his deathbed is an urban legend.

there is no correspondence from Darwin, his family, his colleagues, or his friends that substantiate the claim that Darwin recanted his belief in evolution on his deathbed.

Do you have children Mary? If so why are they not in the military? The military needs young people desperately to replace the ones blown apart in Iraq and Afghanistan. You need to help President Bush out and get those kids of yours in the military. We need to spread Christianity to these countries. Mary, wake up, you're not doing your part.

At 8/20/2005 8:05 AM, Blogger the iconoclastic cat said...

Rose: I love your work! Perhaps if I read the whole site this question will be answered, but I was wondering what you plan to do with all this material?

Thanks! I plan to donate soon.

At 8/20/2005 8:26 AM, Blogger storiesinamerica said...

Thanks, my ultimate goal is to write a book about my experience. I haven't had time to transcribe half of my interviews. As you can imagine, it's a lengthy, time consuming process. We're now in KS (yesterday we were in Liberal, KS!) and am trying to do as many on the street interviews as possible.
Thanks for participating and spreading the word!

At 8/20/2005 8:48 AM, Blogger anwar_jones said...

I suppose that I would just like to offer up this one idea that may in the end lead to healing. It's a simple one but bear with me. I would like for the Fundamentalist Christians to recognize that goodness and good acts can come from homosexuals, atheists and people of other religions. It seems to me that once you are in one of those groups or sympathetic to them that the Fundamentalists see them as irrevocably lost and/or evil and so they dicard whatever comes from these people. Conversly, a person can go to church every day of the week and still be evil in a thousand other ways. We need to be the arbiters of our own morality and learn to see actions for what they are, not what they seem to represent. God is too big to fit in one religion and all the answers might not be in one book.

At 8/20/2005 8:56 AM, Anonymous Singularity said...

Mary, I'll try not to use $50 words.

Since you specifically cite David Barton and Wallbuilders, please visit this site: http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston1.htm

Can you explain why a man of God would need to put words in the mouths of our founding fathers (bear false witness) in order to support his political arguments?

At 8/20/2005 9:14 AM, Anonymous Singularity said...

So far I have noticed at least two instances of lies you have used to support your political position, Mary. As noted previously, the Darwin recantation is also fictitious. Why do fundementalist Chrisitians feel no compunction about breaking the Ninth Commandment when it suits their political viewpoint to do so?

At 8/20/2005 10:08 AM, Anonymous Jeff said...

I have no problem with Mary wanting to vote based on her faith. We each have the right to decide how we are going to vote and what principles we are going to base that vote on.

My problem is with many of the things Mary said that have nothing to do with Christianity. Things she said that were just simply false or contradictory. I'd like to look at a few of them.

Beginning at the beginning. When asked about the high price of gas she said the following:

"From what I've read, they say it's because of the Iraq war."

"...it's not President Bush's fault. He gets blamed for everything, but it's not his fault."

These statements are contradictory in that no one can honestly claim that we would have invaded Iraq if President Bush hadn't been pushing for it to happen. He led the political charge. He and Dick Cheney told the nation that if we didn't invade Iraq, Saddam would use his weapons of mass destruction (or give them to terrorists to use). Mary holds these two opposing notions without realizing how at odds they are with each other.

Next, the War on Terror is not the War in Iraq.

"For one thing, he is protecting our country by being in Iraq. We can't pull out too soon because they'll think we're chicken and they'll try to attack us again... We've always been peacemakers. As long as we keep the peace, we'll be blessed."

Iraq has never attacked the United States of America or its military outside of Iraq (or Kuwait in '91). This is a prime example of conflating the 9/11 attacks with the Iraq war. Iraq played no role in the 9/11 attacks and to suggest otherwise is being disingenuous.

We were not being peacemakers when we invaded Iraq in March 2003. It has not made America safer. It has hurt our standing in the world and given us the reputation as the global bully. Countries that were working with us to fight terrorism are now less inclined to help us; hurting the war on terror, which is the true danger for America.


"The ACLU are run by communists and funded by communists. What does that tell you? They want to take god away from us."

What it tells me, is that Mary doesn't know who runs or funds the ACLU. She is repeating what somebody told her, without looking up the facts for herself (a trend among many Republicans, not simply Mary). The right does a great job of demonizing the ACLU whenever it takes on a purportedly 'leftist' cause, but they are amazingly silent when it helps out the Robertsons, Falwells, and Limbaughs of the world.

Mary also has a misunderstanding of the religious nature of the founding of the country.

"Once a country is dedicated to god and founded on its principles, it has to stay that way."

The United States of America isn't dedicated to God. Many people point to the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment as proof of this, but an even more direct statement exists in a 1796 treaty signed by then President John Adams (and approved by other signers of the constitution).

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

If someone wants to vote Republican because they believe the Republican party represents their religious beliefs they have every right to do so. Some here will certainly point out that many of the so-called values issues are not truly being acted upon by the Republicans, but are only used as talking points to get the votes of the Marys of the world election after election.

My main question is about the other things that Mary has said that are wrong. Most of these ideas probably came from watching/listening/reading information put out by right wing proponents. And for me it is the propensity of Republicans to use false information about issues that I find extremely troublesome. If they are truly on the correct side of an issue, why do can't their arguments rely on facts? Why do they have to lie to the Marys of the world? They claim to be the party of values, yet they are willing to lie in order to gain political advantage. So, I guess I do have one question for Mary concerning the Republican party. What does that tell you?

At 8/20/2005 10:14 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary, You might be responding to me when you say "accusations of me not thinking for myself are totally wrong."

I do think you are thinking for yourself, but I think you have a limited set of data (God's word as taught in your faith), and I doubt that you have really listened to other voices. Your description of a dinner with Muslims provides evidence of this.

More importantly I doubt that you have been well listened to.

"Except for the grace of God, I would be as confused, lost, hurting, angry, and spiritually blind as many of you are."

I'm glad God's grace has helped you heal... but you come to some very angry conclusions, so I cannot believe that your pain has been healed.

" Like Paul wrote, I desire to know nothing, except Jesus Christ and Him crucified and to know the fellowship of His suffering."

Why is that all you desire to know?

I hope you keep learning Mary, and keep talking not only to those who tell you what you already know, but also to those who tell you things that you do not know.

At 8/20/2005 10:16 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary Fowler wrote, "Haiti, Africa, and Iraq are the nations I gave as an example. . ."

Mary, geopolitics may not be quite the right topic for you to comment on.

At 8/20/2005 10:35 AM, Anonymous Brian said...

Hello Rose,

I must say that I was a bit dubious when I first read the description of what this page was about, now, I'm trying to figure out how to contribute while living paycheck-to-paycheck as a public broadcasting employee in central California.

One discomforting point that strikes me is the way the page went from an incredibly interesting series of interviews to a diatribe of invective slinging (well, not all of it, but a good portion). Up to that point I was thinking how this page would be a good item to forward to people I know who do not get it as a way to open their eyes and see themselves, yeah, I know, hope springs eternal.

An unlikely suggestion is to ask people to take into account when they might be on a rant -I'm firmly convinced that 'Mary Fowler' is certainly not THE Mary Fowler in every instance, if at all, just someone having a bit of fun I should think.

Perhaps a new linked-page could serve to post comments/responses and leave the interview pages wholly interview pages?

On similar sites, I tend to find that I will read the posted blogs for a bit and finally decide it is a waste of time and leave.

The above is just a suggestion, keep up the good work, Rose.


At 8/20/2005 11:26 AM, Anonymous Mary said...

Yes, keep up the "good work" Rose. When you approached me it was seeming to be with the intention of unbiased reporting, but after dealing with your site now, I can see it's pro-liberal, as are you, and instead of butting heads with you guys, I choose instead to pray for your salvation. I am researching the death of Darwin and hope to find out if his wife had any comments. The fact that one person said she was at his death bed and yet his family says she was lying, brings doubt in my mind to any authenticity of this man's life. I have read some of his personal letters, and many people have done the same as he has. Turn their backs on God when they prayed and didn't see Him answer the way they thought He should. Instead of searching in Word of God, and seeking His face for answers, they run after excuses for their inability to grasp the things of god, and get into error. In his case it's sad, because there's no telling how many he has influenced by his error, to end up in hell. Now whether or not he repented on his death bed, guess when those of us who believe in Jesus get there we will know. When we see he is not there and yet his wife is. And if indeed he is in hell for not repenting, then those of you that join him, have fun hashing over his theory that caused confusion in so many. A lot of so called earthly wisdom stems from Satan, the father of lies, and that is why I choose not to weary and pollute my mind with lies from satan.

Have you fully convinced yourself after looking at wallbuilders that it's not the other writers who are taking away from what our forefathers actually said, in school books all over the US, they have changed the true history of our nation and that's an injustice to our children and grandchildren. I know David Barton, have followed his life and minstry for many years, and will stay with his research. I don't know you anon, and would't trust anything you said.

At 8/20/2005 11:29 AM, Anonymous Mary said...

I guess it's singularity, so many are anonymous and anyway that was for you singularity. Why are so many ashamed to use their real name???? makes u wonder huh?

At 8/20/2005 12:12 PM, Anonymous Singularity said...

People followed Jim Jones for many years, too, Mary. He claimed to know the mind of God and Christ. The same is true of David Koresh. If you read the link that I cited, you'll see that David Barton has acknowledged using fake quotes in the past and has continued to do so despite his admission. You seem to believe that anything that doesn't conform to your preconceived worldview is actually a conspiracy by the forces of Satan. Is it entirely outside the realm of possibility that some of the people to whom you have been listening aare liars? Even during the time of Christ, many good people fell under the sway of false prophets and pharisees.

At 8/20/2005 12:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've read the bible. But I've also been to college and studied geology. The information in the bible doesn't match up with what we can see if we just look around. If its wrong on that, I expect its wrong on a lot of things.

The preachers on the television aren't there because they're men of god. They're there because they know you'll send them money so they can have a really good life without working too hard. Most of them haven't read the bible. Neither have most of the people who watch them. If you think they are the only reliable source of information then you are open to being mislead. Nobody is the only reliable source of information. You have to look at a lot of different information, then filter it by the motives of the providers and the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Lots of countries have turned away from god and done alright. Usually better because the choose to find their own answers rather than rely on the liars pounding books on television.

We don't need more god, we need more critical thinking and compassion for others. I've been all over the world and people everywhere are wonderful. But they sometimes end up with bad leaders, like we have now. Hopefully this will change for us soon too.

George W Bush isn't a godly man. He's a liar who wants you to believe that so you'll vote for him. The television preachers tell you to vote for him so he will do them favors. The people who own the oil companies support him because he helps them raise the price of gasoline. His Vice President used to run one of the largest oil field service companies in the world. He still has friends there and they help each other.

None of them care about you or god though. If you think this through, you'll see I'm right.

At 8/20/2005 12:47 PM, Anonymous Mary said...

hey anon,


At 8/20/2005 1:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Welcome to the Bush Bashing Blog Site, your place to come to vent your anger and blame Bush for your ingrown toenails, your tummy aches, your tonados, your flu, your whatever. After all, it's his fault you know!!

At 8/20/2005 3:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iraq is a quagmire..

The oil man named Bush who promised to tell opec to open their spigots when gas was 1.64 and he was running against Gore has done nothing now that it is 2.65 a gallon.

Bush is and always has and always will be a failure and unless you only watch the MSM and listen to talk show right wing propaganda spewers, you too would know how every blog is now a Bush bashing blog except those too blind and stupid to realize how bad he is to our country..

I could go on and on, but to quote BUsh after a grieving mother asked to meet with him, I have to go on with my life.

At 8/20/2005 4:21 PM, Anonymous Singularity said...

Putting your fingers in your ears and going "la la la" doesn't change facts, Mary. The Bible warns that in the end times believers will be deceived by false prophets. Considering his involvement in the blood trade of war diamonds and his history of distorting the truth to suit his private purposes, isn't it possible that Pat Robertson is one of these? Ask yourself, if Christ came back would He find good company among the millionaire faith healers? Or would He react the way he did to the moneychangers in the temple?

At 8/20/2005 4:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow, not only is this a bush bashing site, it's mary flower bashing one too. Let's see this whole mess is anti-christ, anti-bush, anti-morals, anti-God, anti-republican,pro-murder of babies, pro-gay, pro-evolution and athiesm, pro-protecting evil men who slaughter millions. My, My, My,as my granny would say, shame on you!

At 8/20/2005 5:12 PM, Anonymous prof fate said...

Shorter Mary:

"My mind's made up -- don't confuse me with the facts!"

(BTW: Before we go any further, I'm not a professor of anything. My web handle comes from an early 1960s Blake Edwards farce. So don't try to pull any of this "liberal elites" b.s. on me, either.)

Anyway, Mary, you were the one who cited Pat Robertson as a moral authority. Why should I have to go to 10 of your selected links before we can talk? The fact of his snuggling up to an African dictator over a diamond mine is impossible to deny. (Though, come to think of it, you've already proven that for you, denial ain't just a river.)

The truth is, your godly leaders are the proverbial wolves in sheep's clothing. "By their fruits you shall know them" and the stench of corruption wafting off this bunch would gag a vulture.

(Is this too "ten-dollar" for you?)

I admit the "wet yourself" remark in my first post was uncalled-for, and I apologize for it, but I'm sticking with my larger point:

Much as you may try to sweeten your words with sprinklings of "gentle Jesus, meek and mild", the one thing that shines through them all is your morbid lust for punishment and vengeance. Like every other Fundamentalist Christians I've met -- and lady, living as I do in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, I've endured more than a few of you -- it's the wrathful Jehovah of the Old Testament who commands your real devotion.

What it comes down to is this: You're taking all the disappointments of your life, the humiliations and insults and bottled-up rage and making your thirst for revenge the face of God. Why? Because it's common for the powerless to daydream of being all-powerful. You believe this God will smite your enemies, that is, the people who make you feel worthless and stupid or just uncomfortable.

You are not worthless and stupid, just very, very frightened and deeply deluded. You've cramped the Maker of this vast and awesome universe into a petty -- some might even say blasphemous -- reflection of the hate inside you.

But here is the vital difference between you and me: You're not willing to wait until the afterlife to find out who's wrong. You want to lock me up right now for not believing the same things as you. Don't try to deny it. You said that's the way things were, and that's the way they should be now.

You do realize you're talking about early Colonial New England, not the United States? Are you a closet Tory? Do you want to bring back the good old days at Salem? You want to slowly crush a man to death on the advice of hysterical teenage girls? You want to hang people just for being Quakers, as the Massachusetts Colony did Mary Dyer and two of her friends? These are all things you can find in any halfway-decent history book, the examples the Founders of our republic had right in front of them; that's why they they thought religious freedom and separation of church and state were so important.

And if what I said earlier about condoning torture and murder seems a bit harsh, well, let's do a little thought experiment:

Say that in your nation ruled by God (well, actually, men like Robertson, who'll gladly interpret "God's rules" for the rest of us) I didn't shout "Praise Jesus" loud enough at the daily compulsory prayer meeting.

So you throw me in jail.

Say I didn't mend my ways, well, what's next: A public flogging, some time in the stocks? But what if that didn't do the trick, either? A trip to a re-education (excuse me, Bible study) camp out somewhere in the boondocks?

Or do we just cut to the chase and go for the good old-fashioned public execution? Something with real audience participation, like a stoning, maybe.

Over the top? Not at all. Once you take that first step down the path of forcing everyone to believe the same thing, it's inevitable.

At 8/20/2005 5:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

whoaaaaaaaaaa, this is such a bitter, rancorous, hate-filled bunch of people,that are screwing up what Mary said, and making it seem like they are so much wiser and justifying what they do while making her seem like a moron.I'm just glancing over at what some anonymous said, "without rancor." Maybe it was earlier, bit is so rancid now, it stinks of hatred, violence, and twisting the truth to make a person appear as something they are not. Sick, sick, sick.

At 8/20/2005 6:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

This is in Romans 1
Some of you are signs of the end times.

At 8/20/2005 6:25 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's more,

2 Timothy 3
Godlessness in the Last Days
1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Paul's Charge to Timothy
10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

At 8/20/2005 6:38 PM, Anonymous prof fate said...

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

At 8/20/2005 6:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blessed are the Ori.


At 8/20/2005 8:43 PM, Anonymous prof fate said...

Anonymous at 5:28 PM:

Rancor? Well, what do you call jailing people for not believing in your brand of religion? Mary quite clearly approved of the practice; she said that's what this country should be doing right now.

Bigotry is evil, even when it's served up with the sweetest of smiles. It deserves to be rebuked. I'm sorry if some of us here have offended your tender sensibilities.

I hope (but sincerely doubt) that you realize what a rotten showing your side has made here. Against facts, history and reasoned arguments, the best you guys can marshal is a bunch of cut-and-pasters who fling Biblical quotes at us like furious monkeys lobbing handfuls of their own ... well, never mind.

And the most delicious thing about it is that their choice of material proves my point.

Never forget that for these people, tolerance is weakness, questions are sinful, facts are Satanic lies and disagreement is a sure sign of blackest evil. They want the State to give the Church a billyclub.

If given half a chance, they'll bring on a new Dark Ages faster than you can say "Republic of Gilead".

At 8/21/2005 7:18 AM, Blogger Terrible said...

What I'll never understand is how people who claim to believe in God and claim to believe in the teachings of Jesus so consistently support murder, armed robbery and the use of America's Armed Forces as mercernaries for corporations who keep moving there facilities to foriegn countries. ALL evidence points to this being exactly what the war in Iraq is - MURDER, ARMED ROBBERY and USING AMERICA'S ARMED FORCES AS MERCERNARIES.

At 8/21/2005 9:14 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm the First Anonymous--the one who said Rose's accounts of her journey were told without rancor. And that is true; hearing her voice on AirAmerica last night reinforced my impression of her. I too am dismayed at the name-calling and acrimony in many of these posts. But rather than use the word "hate" I would strongly urge everyone to realize it is anger, and fear, that propels most of these comments. And anger and fear are not the same as "hate." Rose, I hope your series continues throughout the U.S. And I wish a Red Stater with as kind of a heart as you seem to have would have the desire and open-mindedness to journey to Blue States to conduct similar interviews. Wouldn't that be great! Thanks again, Rose, for your contribution toward finding common ground in this divisive country we are now living in.

At 8/21/2005 9:30 AM, Blogger storiesinamerica said...

Thank you anonymous. I've been on the road so you can imagine my surprise at the high number of comments when I logged on. I'm glad so many of you are taking part. That said, some of the comments went too far. Nasty comments will only drive people away. I'm meeting people on this trip that I never run across in my San Francisco bubble. That's why I left in the first place. Mary, if you're reading this, thanks for taking part.

At 8/21/2005 2:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

where in the interview is the statement about jail? I don't see it.

At 8/21/2005 3:33 PM, Anonymous prof fate said...


Re-read the interview. It's right there at the top of Mary's segment. Through the magic of cut-and-paste, here is the exact quote:

When they first started the country, those that didn't believe in Jesus were put in jail. Once a country is dedicated to god and founded on its principles, it has to stay that way.

Besides the blatant historical inaccuracy, I don't see how it can be argued that this is a "nice" sentiment, or that I've taken something out of context. Mary obviously approves of this notion, and wants it to be the law of the land for you and me.

Believe it or not, armchair psychoanalysis is something I try to avoid doing, but the authoritarian bent, the barely-concealed hate and thirst for vengeance of Mary and some of the so-called "Christian" posters on this thread has to be called out. For far too long, these twisted beliefs have been given a free pass in our discourse.

At 8/21/2005 4:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Prof fate,
This is a free country, and people are encouraged to voice their thoughts without being reviled at because their beliefs throw a knot in your tailfeather.

At 8/21/2005 5:02 PM, Anonymous Sally said...

Just curious about all of the anti-homosexual beliefs fundamentalist Christian hold and tend to preach. If it were so important to Jesus, wouldn't he have mentioned it, maybe even once? He sure had a lot to say about his feelings regarding divorce, yet not a thing about homosexuality. Isn't that interesting?

At 8/21/2005 6:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, He cast many unclean spirits out of people, homosexual spirits are considered foul, unclean spirits.

At 8/21/2005 6:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Prof fate,
You sure add things and presume things by what Mary said. From reading some of your complaints, it seems you have a root of bitterness in your heart and defile anyone who will listen to you.

At 8/21/2005 7:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And contrary to your supposition, most Christians don't want vengence, for "Vengence is mine, saith the Lord" They do want justice which any good moral person wants. After giving some thought to the idea of jailing those who didn't serve Jesus Christ, maybe if that had continued, we wouldn't have all these mosques in the US, with a religion that some, notice I'm saying some, not all, are radical islamic muslims who are like the ones who were involved in 911. Studying here in the US, gathering information and then using it to attack us. I guess you all who are so against war, like to protect evil men like that, and condemn, badmouth, and lie about the good men.

At 8/21/2005 7:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would like to ask the Bush supporters a question: If a Democrat had been elected and re-elected instead of Bush, would you still feel the same way about this war?

At 8/21/2005 8:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would still feel the same way if a democrat had been elected.

At 8/22/2005 12:07 AM, Anonymous prof fate said...

Anonymous at 4:09 PM:

Mary and the rest of you have a perfect right to voice your opinions. Tell me where I said anything different.

But this is the fact of the matter: You can say anything you want -- and I would die to defend that right -- but you don't have the right to punish me for disagreeing with you!

No one made Mary come up with such an outrageous statement, nobody tricked her into saying it. What she said was perfectly clear: For an instant, that "loving Christian" mask slipped and revealed the true nature of her religion.

And it's blindingly obvious that I struck a nerve with you folks when I called her on it. The deafening silence on this point speaks volumes -- and it ain't pretty reading.

Anonymous at 7:10 PM was the only one with the honesty to come out and say such an abominable idea might be a good thing. BTW, anon, I guess you haven't noticed that I've been careful to speak of "Fundamentalist Christians"?

All I'm trying to do is to get you to listen to yourselves, to hear your words as someone outside your Hallelujah Chorus hears them, that is, to recognize that big old beam in your eye.

It's true that I've presumed more than a bit in speculating about why you professed adherents to a religion of love are so fixated on wrath and punishment. However the fact that you are obsessed with these things is plain as day. Every word you've said and every Biblical quote you've selected prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

See, you don't want a discussion, you want total submission. You call contradiction "hateful" and substitute dogma for reason. You are classic "true believers" and as far as I'm concerned, regardless of where it comes from -- Marx, Mao, Mein Kampf or the King James Bible -- the one constant is that the thing you obviously fear and hate the most is freedom.

At 8/22/2005 9:55 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Mary: Here's a link to the Amazon.com page where you can read about, and order (used, for a few dollars), C.S. Lewis' SURPRISED BY JOY. Then you might want to read his MERE CHRISTIANITY. He was born in Ireland in 1898, educated in England, underwent a profound conversion to Christianity in his early adulthood, wrote dozens of great books, died in 1963. I'm a nonbeliever, a stone-cold atheist, but I find the principles of true compassionate Christianity as he expressed them to be completely admirable. I would be happy to live surrounded by Christians like C.S. Lewis.


At 8/22/2005 9:57 AM, Blogger Jesus Freak said...

anon said:
"It's similar for Europe in general. We're all completely non-religous to compared to the majority of Americans, but AIDs, poverty and sickness are not problems here compared to the United states.

Does God prefer Europeans?"

I have been to Europe on Missions trips with various Christian organizations. To say there is not problems with AIDS, poverty, and sickness in Europe compared to the States is false!

I have been to AIDS clinics, orphanages with children of all ages (and even if the medical care is FREE, who cares; if the babies grow up with "black holes" in their brains because there are too many of them to get the physical, caring touch they need to develop normally, what good does it do that the medical care is "free"), hospitals with inadequate everything, gypsy villages with no running water, in undergroud pipes where the street kids are sucking on bags of paint to dull the pangs of hunger, and I could go on and on about the many things I've seen in Europe.

There is bad here in the States, too, it's more than true; but there is help here that I didn't see in place in Europe. In the States, there are food stamps, the medical card, disability, shelters in almost every city, not to mention various organizations (Christian and non-Christian alike) who help the poor, and down and out, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that there is help here in the States that I did not see available in Europe and to say that there is not AIDS, poverty, and sickness in Europe like in the States, I would encourage you to take a road trip across Europe and go see for yourself inside the orphanages, AIDS centers, train stations (at the homeless population), etc...then come back here and let us all know what you've seen.

I cried for days after visiting an orphanage for babies. 24 perfect babies, (birth to one year old) the older ones beginning to show signs of the black hole in their brains. It wasn't because the workers were cruel; it was just that there were only 3 to take care of all those babies.

Jeremiah 29:11

At 8/22/2005 11:52 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Jesus Freak said: "There is bad here in the States, too, it's more than true; but there is help here that I didn't see in place in Europe. In the States, there are food stamps, the medical card, disability, shelters in almost every city, not to mention various organizations (Christian and non-Christian alike) who help the poor, and down and out, etc."

Food stamps, medical cards, Disability and such exist in the U.S. because of New Deal legislation passed in the 1930s under Franklin D. Roosevelt. The Clinton administration began the dismantling of these safety nets with so-called "Welfare Reform," and the current administration continues that systematic dismantling with a most un-Christian enthusiasm and determination. Clinton and Bush both call themselves "Christians," but in fact they are both buccaneer capitalists, opportunists and bullies. I could go around calling myself an astrophysicist, but that doesn't make me one. Where's the compassion?

At 8/22/2005 11:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don't have to trust anyone insofar as Barton is concerned. Go look it up yourself.

Barton himself has disavowed at least 12 quotes that were originally published in "The Myth of Separation"

Well, disavowed may not be the strictly correct term, it would be more like telling his followers not to use them anymore because he can't verify them. And I love his weaseling out of the fact that he wrote a book that misinformed his readers by stating that he is now going to adhere to "legal" truth as opposed to "academic and scholarly" truth, as if there were a difference.

Truth is truth. Period. .

No hard wishes, Mary, but I am afraid for my country when people simply accept the teachings of one individual without independently checking out the information.

And I have a real problem with Barton. That man has misinformed a generation, putting his ideology before truth, and then hides his retractions deep in his website.

At 8/22/2005 3:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said, Jesus Freak. Of course you know your are going to get corrected on this site for every thing you say. It doesn't matter if you've been there and seen it, they are still going to make you seem wrong. Sad, huh?

At 8/22/2005 3:33 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I glanced at the site against David Barton. Just more lies, and hatefulness, twisting the truth, as a lot do here on this site who are liberal as they come.

At 8/22/2005 3:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What were the lies, specifically, on the site critical of Barton?

At 8/22/2005 5:03 PM, Anonymous Grumpy Badger said...

Book of Matthew, Chapter 4, Verse Five, King James Edition:

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


"But what are the lies?"

Lies are things the viewer does not agree with. As opposed to "truths". This is the nature of a faith-based policy. Not the best of plans for anything larger than "I have faith that I will not go flying off into the stratosphere today," however.


I find it amusing that Mary went from being kind and righteous to angry, spiteful, hateful and righteous. I find it even more amusing that she did so not only to those who admittedly 'bashed' her beliefs, but to those who offered her actual thought-out counters to her own as a means of furthering the discussion. I would, given the opportunity challenge Mary. Not in a n angry, snide way but in the manner of one who would truly like to see her continue to live as a Christian in these challenging times. Read the Bible, and read other things as well. God wants you to learn, to grow, to think for yourself *and* to abide by his words. It *can* be done, but only if you use the wits God gave you.

"How can you be religous and rational at the same time?"

"How can you be one without the other?"

- Snow Crash, Neil Stephenson (a paraphrase, sadly. I don't have a copy of it before me)

At 8/22/2005 5:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well I checked out the sites you were mentioning and here's directly from the cat's mouth. Not from what someone else said about him.
David Barton's response:

August 30, 2003

Barry Hankins
J. M. Dawson Institute
Baylor University
Waco, TX 76798

Mr. Hankins:

I recently was given an article you had authored, “Separation of Church and State is not Just for Liberals.” The copy I received was undated; perhaps it is an older article; nevertheless, since I was a subject of your pen (and since you never took the time to consult me either to confirm or deny what you alleged about me), I thought I would present you with a few facts concerning the misrepresentations you made about me on page 1 of that article:

1. To my knowledge, the only time I have acknowledged or read anything that Robert Alley has written was his attack on me for speaking at Gov. George Allen's Inauguration in January 1994. It may come as a complete surprise to you to learn that I neither read nor follow anything Robert Alley may or may not say about me, nor have I read any article by him about Madison or his writings.

2. Since I do not read Alley's materials nor do I concern myself with his writings, he clearly had no influence on our publication of the “Questionable Quotes” list. Consider: we listed over a dozen questionable quotes but Alley apparently mentioned only the Madison quote; and you assert that was the reason we issued our much more extensive list? Ridiculous! In fact, to our knowledge, my article about the uncertainty of the Madison quote predated his; we did not change our position in response to anything he wrote; rather, I publicly announced that I would no longer use the Madison quote (and others) not because it was inaccurate but rather because I had determined to raise the scholarship of the debate from an academic level to the higher level of legal documentation known as “best evidence” - a level of documentation that most of those in your camp have yet to embrace. (For example, In Search of Christian America, written by three PhDs from your viewpoint, purports to search the Founding Era (1760-1805) for evidences of official acknowledgments of Christianity and concludes that there is a lack of such evidence. However, of the hundreds of sources cited to reach that conclusion, some 80 percent were taken from sources published after 1950 - more than a century-and-a-half after the period they purport to investigate! Such disparate and dissimilar sources would be unacceptable in a court of law.)

3. Alley can neither claim that Madison “never” uttered the “quote in question” about the Ten Commandments nor that it was “false.” As you yourself know, Madison's “Detached Memoranda” (surely one of your favorite documents) was not “discovered” until 1946. More Madison letters previously unknown are found regularly, often in the estates of recently deceased individuals who held private collections or inherited family heirlooms received directly from Madison's hand. Furthermore, much of what is known about Madison and his diverse and often changing viewpoints frequently comes from Madison's contemporaries rather than from his own writings. For example, more of Madison's succinct statements against slavery are available through his personal interviews with Harriet Martineau (published in the early 1800s) than from his own writings. Alley can no more claim that the Madison quote does not exist than I can claim that it does. However, I can show that the Madison “quote in question” has been in circulation for generations, and I can document it (as I did) to non-modern works and works by credentialed historians. Quite simply, neither I nor Alley can say whether or not the Madison quote is false; however, I simply decided that I would no longer quote academics, historians, or doctorates of history to establish what the Founders said (as you regularly do) but instead I would cite only primary source documentation that meets a legal standard of evidence. (I continue to challenge your side to meet the same standard.)

4. Your claim that “The flap does not seem to have slowed Barton's juggernaut” is baseless and irrelevant simply because there was no flap other than what you attempted to concoct. Furthermore, the specific work you so recklessly demean (The Myth of Separation) provided over 750 footnoted citations. Therefore, for us to drop a dozen quotes from that work represented a trivially small percentage and no historical conclusion was changed. For example, rather than continuing to use the uncertain James Madison quote on the Ten Commandments, I replaced it with irrefutably-documented statements by other Founders on the same subject - such as the Ten Commandments quote by John Adams (by the way, Adams - unlike Madison - actually signed the Bill of Rights and is an equally competent legal authority on the subject). As a result of my decision to elevate the level of documentation, we replaced The Myth of Separation with Original Intent - a work with over 1,400 footnotes (rather than the 750 in Myth), and a work that not only meets legal standards of scrutiny but that also arrives at the identical historical conclusions reached in The Myth of Separation.

5. On the other hand, I notice that in books from those of your perspective, few footnotes are presented. For example, in The Godless Constitution - an allegedly “scholarly” university text written by two prominent PhDs - no footnotes are provided. As they openly concede, “we have dispensed with the usual scholarly apparatus of footnotes.” While a work such as this with no footnotes is probably acceptable to you simply because of its conclusions, it would not pass legal muster for best evidence; yet my work which does pass the standards of legal scrutiny is completely unacceptable to you. Ironically you frequently embrace and laud the types of works that fail to meet the legal standard of “best evidence” while attacking and demeaning the ones that do.

I recognize that there can be honest differences of opinions between well-intentioned individuals; and I whole-heartedly support your right to free speech — including your right to make uninformed statements, present incomplete and inaccurate information, and offer complete mischaracterizations and misportrayals — as you have done in the part of your article addressing me. Regrettably, the section of your article about me neither meets the standards of basic journalism (where an individual attacked in an article is called and asked to respond to charges) nor of academic scholarship (where footnotes and documentation are provided). In your defense, I did note that you provided one footnote to document my “false” quotes; however, the source of that documentation was actually an attack piece written against me by one of your closest allies — not quite an unbiased objective source! However, objective truth was probably never the goal of your article.

An old lawyers' adage admonishes: “When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts. When you have the law on your side, argue the law. When neither is on your side, change the subject and question the motives of the opposition.” You seem to have chosen the latter course of action.

David Barton

[For more information on this issue please see “Unconfirmed Quotations”]

At 8/22/2005 6:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are so many books out on our founding fathers. "From Sea to Shining Sea" and "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manuel. I haven't finished them yet, because they are such big books, but from what I have read, during times of division and ungodliness, as we are seeing in this nation now, is when God sent a spiritual awakening, revival, renewal to Him. I feel it has started and will spread. So get ready for a mighty touch from Him.

At 8/22/2005 6:11 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

LOL, wow, that is so cool. Thank you to whoever posted the David Barton response. Bet that really yanks a knot in some of your tailfeathers, huh? Wow, he summed it up so perfectly. All you liberals on this site are so much like those on the site trying to lie about David Barton.

At 8/22/2005 8:51 PM, Anonymous Singularity said...

So David Barton's response is "you can't prove I'm lying, so nya nya nya"? History scholars have already debunked the documents he cites as proof of Madison's statements. The fact that he doesn't mention this is more proof that he's a liar.

By the way, Mary, your source of political information, Pat Robertson, went on television today and advocated the murder of a popularly elected leader of a western democracy, falsely claiming that a U.S.-sponsored coup attempt against him was a "popular uprising". Which Commandment allows the murder of your political opponents again? Which one allows bearing false witness against those with whom you disagree?

At 8/22/2005 9:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

At 6:11 PM, Anonymous said...

LOL, wow, that is so cool. Thank you to whoever posted the David Barton response. Bet that really yanks a knot in some of your tailfeathers, huh? Wow, he summed it up so perfectly. All you liberals on this site are so much like those on the site trying to lie about David Barton.

Did you read his response, Anon?

Quoting Barton: "Alley can no more claim that the Madison quote does not exist than I can claim that it does."

The thing is, HE DID CLAIM IT. In a Book, that has been read by millions of readers. The detritus of this jerk's lies flood the internet. Just recently, a letter to the editor of our local paper used one of the quotes from "Myth of Separation" that Barton himself has disavowed, but not retracted.

Barton wants it both ways. He asserts in his letter that there is no evidence to suggest that he has misled the masses, when it is plain as day he has. His quotes, false quotes, flood the internet and are constantly repeated.

Truth: Barton got caught out on bullshit, devised a scheme to back out of hole he had dug himself, by redifining truth into two separate categories, Academic (read substandard) and Legal (much better truth???)

Truth is truth, dude. If you are wrong, admit it. Barton was wrong to include sketchy cites in his book, knows it, backed his way out, without admitting he did anything wrong, and uses the most intellectually dishonest argument to defend himself and attack his opponent, that being this little playground copout: "You cannot prove he did not say it!"

I would challenge anyone to prove that James Madison did not once state: "I believe in spooks!"

At 8/22/2005 9:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So what about the underhanded way these people say things without going to the source. Then when the source corrects them there's more crap like what u just said.

At 8/22/2005 9:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have the same problem with that site tripod, He has misinformed you big time~!!!

At 8/22/2005 9:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

except for the one who said there are some good books on our founding fathers. That was a good comment.

At 8/22/2005 9:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

where's your compassion, morticia? Haven't seen you overflowing in it.

At 8/22/2005 9:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yayyyyyyyyyy Bush!!

At 8/22/2005 9:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Misrepresentations, so true, so true

At 8/22/2005 9:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

If the site is so bad, why do you keep coming back? Stop complaining and go donate money to the Disabled Veterans. At least Rose is exposing the fact that our soldiers aren't properly equipped or receiving proper healthcare.
If you really support the troops, read:


At 8/23/2005 6:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good morning everybody. What a beautiful day. We're getting the much needed rain. Thank you Jesus, Hallelujah. Makes me feel like singing. Join in you know the words.

"God bless America (the land and those who call them selves Americans), Land that I love.

Lord, stand beside her, and guide her, through the night, with the light from above.
From the mountains to the prairies, to theh oceans, white with foam. God bless America, my
home sweet home....... God bless America, the land that I love.

At 8/23/2005 7:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, when I said that as a child in school, it was just a ritual and words. I've never had a teacher explain the meaning.

I just went to see what I could find about it, and it was written by a Baptist pastor. Pretty good reading. It became the public allegiance and prayer for the nation. I liked this part:

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

At 8/23/2005 8:34 AM, Anonymous prof fate said...

Hey, all you 700 Club fans, let's see how you square this one with your Christian beliefs:

Pat Robertson calls for the assassination of Hugo Chavez


Who Would Jesus Whack?

And this is the guy you rely on for a world-view? My, what sick little puppies...

At 8/23/2005 8:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you Republicans/Pat Robertson fans really believe they care about you? Don't you think they're using you for votes? Think about it. If they really wanted to ban gay marriage, Bush wouldn't have backed away from the constitutional change immediately AFTER the election. He controls all three houses of Congress. Why doesn't he push to ban abortion? Because he uses those two issues to lure in people like you. Bush is a very wealthy man with ties in the Middle Eastern countries you despise so much. He's in it for power and money and isn't thinking of you in the process. His economic policies couldn't be clearer. Tax cuts for the wealthy. Corporate subsidies for oil companies. He's Christian? ha! Has he ever mentioned the word "poor." Jesus wouldn't be happy. Open your eyes, people. You're being used. It's actually sad...

At 8/23/2005 9:11 AM, Blogger Max Payne fan from Virginia Beach said...

Mary Fowler is one of those staunch conservatives you've got to learn to beware of. Read George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant" . Of course, you can't expect to win back staunch conservatives who obsess on hot button issues and believe in terrorists like Bush and Robertson. However, there are other well reasoned conservatives who have part of a liberal side in them which needs reawakening.

At 8/23/2005 9:26 AM, Blogger Terrible said...

Why is it that self proclaimed 'conservatives' lie sooo much but always say that truth is a lie??

Can some one please tell me more about this "When they first started the country, those that didn't believe in Jesus were put in jail." because I've studies a fair amount of American history and never heard such utter nonsense.

I do know that Pat Robertson should indeed be in jail. But not because he doesn't believe in Jesus, which he obviously doesn't. But because his recent support of terrorism in the form of political assasinations is a shameful disgrace to America.

At 8/23/2005 9:34 AM, Anonymous anti-racist said...

I think that quoting pat needs tp be done

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war. And I don't think any oil shipments will stop. But this man is a terrific danger and the United ... This is in our sphere of influence, so we can't let this happen. We have the Monroe Doctrine, we have other doctrines that we have announced. And without question, this is a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us very badly. We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

yup, he's got the oil, so let's kill him! Not terribly Christian, but at least he's honest!

At 8/23/2005 10:35 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Anonymous said:
"where's your compassion, morticia? Haven't seen you overflowing in it."

I was making a point about powerful leaders and public figures (Clinton and Bush, to name just two) who call themselves "Christian" and then behave in an un-Christian way, like dismantling social programs meant to be safety nets for the citizens of this country. That's the point you should be addressing, not whether or not I myself am overflowing with compassion. Tell me: what DO you think about Clinton and Bush dismantling social programs?

Not that it's relevant to the point, but I ain't so bad. Go back and read my posts. I began by saying something nice about Mary to soften my criticism, and then I told people to stop calling her names. I've kept it civil.

At 8/23/2005 1:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guess we'll see if chavez attacks the US and another war develops for you guys to bellyache about.

At 8/23/2005 1:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've seen some of you guys mad enough on this site and voice stuff that could be wondered about too. Pat Robertson is keeping up with world events, and you know, sometimes, you just wanna be on the offense for a change. Isn't having a good offense on a ball team just as important as a good defense???

At 8/23/2005 1:28 PM, Anonymous prof fate said...


Oops -- you beat me to it. But I did supply a link to the article (from that well-known Satanic news outlet, USA Today).

You know, watching the reactions of our fundamentalist friends here, I've finally come to the conclusion that severely stunted emotional development is an essential requirement for joining this group of true believers.

"You contradicted me: You're hateful!"

"Everything you say is a lie!"

"You say bad things about [insert corrupt authority figure here]!"

"You should be punished for not agreeing with me in every single detail!"

"If you're not gonna talk nice to me, I'm gonna go home and take all my marbles with me! So there!"

Not to mention their frequent bouts of Bibliorrhea...

And to the anonymous poster who accused some of us (and I'm certain they meant me, too) of being "signs of the end times", all I can say is that you're a clear sign of the end of the Enlightenment. Have a nice feudalism!

This country is in even worse trouble than I previously thought.

Rose: Sorry to have monopolized so much of your thread. I'll stop now, honest.

Thanks, for providing a perfect illustration of the pathology at work.

At 8/23/2005 1:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a question for the Conservatives posting on this message board. You love to talk about how homosexuals are ruining America and indoctrinating our children, among other things. My question is, how are we going to get rid of these people, exactly? I'm sure there are a lot of gays who aren't exactly going to come running when someone says they can be "saved". What happens to them once the Revolution comes? Will they be thrown in jail, brainwashed, sent to forced labor camps, or executed? It's a lot harder and bloodier to wipe out a whole class of people than it sounds at first suggestion, no matter how immoral or Godless they are. Again, how do we completely get rid of homosexuality without having a holocaust? I would really like to have an anwser to this question.

At 8/23/2005 1:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

God Bless you Prof fate, have a wonderful day.

At 8/23/2005 1:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blue Jay,
It's not up to us to do anything, except speak what God's Word says about same sex beliefs. God will be the one who does whatever He feels is right concerning ridding the land of a curse. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He caused the flood to come with evil men seemed so bent on not changing. His Word does say, the land would vomit them out. So I'm not sure what that means. I pray many will receive deliverance and salvation as they call out to Jesus, who has provided that. We as believers, can keep the blood of Jesus over our lives and our families to protect them from the homosexual spirit.

At 8/23/2005 1:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlueJay again,
With all due respect, anonymous, what do we do in the present to rid us of this "curse"? According to many, something has to be done about homosexuality ASAP. Many Conservatives aren't willing to wait for God to strike these people down. They want a heterosexual utopia NOW. Again, what do we do while we're waiting for God to get rid of homosexuality for us?


At 8/23/2005 1:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, this is so good!

Have you ever wondered why the Flag of the United States of America is folded 13 times when it is lowered or when it is folded and handed to the next of kin at the burial of a veteran?

Here is the meaning of each of those folds and what it means:

The first fold of our Flag is a symbol of life.

The second fold is a symbol of our belief in eternal life.

The third fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veterans departing our ranks who gave a portion of their lives for the defense of our country to attain peace throughout the world.

The fourth fold represents our weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in time of war for His divine guidance.

The fifth fold is a tribute to our country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our Country, in dealing with other countries may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."

The sixth fold is for where our hearts lie. It is with our heart that we pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The seventh fold is a tribute to our Armed Forces, for it is through the Armed Forces that we protect our country and our flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of our Republic.

The eighth fold is a tribute to the one who entered into the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day, and to honor mother, for whom it flies on Mother's Day.

The ninth fold is a tribute to womanhood; for it has been through their faith, their love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great has been molded.

The tenth fold is a tribute to the father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of our country since they were first born.

The eleventh fold, in the eyes of a Hebrew citizen represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The twelfth fold, in the eyes of a Christian citizen, represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies, in their eyes, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

The thirteenth fold: When the Flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost reminding us of our Nation's motto, "In God We Trust." After the Flag is completely folded and tucked in, it takes on the appearance of a cocked hat, ever reminding us of the soldiers who served under General George Washington, and the Sailors and Marines who served under Captain John Paul Jones, who were followed by their comrades and shipmates in the Armed Forces of the United States, preserving for us the rights, privileges, and freedoms we enjoy today.

The next time you see a Flag ceremony honoring someone that has served our country, either in the Armed Forces or in our civilian services such as the Police Force or Fire Department, keep in mind all the important reasons behind each and every movement. They have paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us by honoring our Flag and our Country.

At 8/23/2005 2:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Prayer is our best weapon. For those who want to do more, there are peaceful demonstrations. Getting knowledge and sharing it with others.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, who are called by name will humble themselves, pray, turn from their wicked ways, and seek my face. I will hear their prayer and heal their land." If we keep ourselves pure from hatred, strife, etc. We can pray and He hears us.

At 8/23/2005 2:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Today the flag consists of thirteen horizontal stripes, seven red alternating with 6 white. The stripes represent the original 13 colonies, the stars represent the 50 states of the Union. The colors of the flag are symbolic as well: Red symbolizes Hardiness and Valor, White symbolizes Purity and Innocence and Blue represents Vigilance, Perseverance and Justice.

I just love seeing this, it's so enlightening.

At 8/23/2005 2:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlueJay has something more to say,
"We, as believers, can keep the blood of Jesus over our lives and our families to protect them from the homosexual spirit"
I thought every family was unprotected and under attack. Conservatives have stressed that Christian families are actually the most in danger because the evil, brilliant homosexuals have figured out that Christians are the ultimate enemies of their agenda and are making these families their most hunted enemies. With all due respect, anonymous, Conservatives need to keep their stories straight. Also, what about all those teenagers from Conservative families who have to go to some sort of therapy
because they have fallen victim to "The Homosexual Agenda"? If Conservative Christianity was a gay-proof shield, they wouldn't have to be there.

At 8/23/2005 2:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what do u wanna do, blue jay? u must have some ideas?

At 8/23/2005 2:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lack of knowledge of the Word of God concerning our protection. Parents not teaching their children about what God's word says concerning homosexuality. Some parents are so detached from their children they don't know when they are being confronted by same sex individuals.Christian schools are an option, and you still have to be protective there, because a lot of parents send their kids to christian schools but the kids are wild and worldly. Home schooling is an option. I think if more parents would object to what goes on in Public Schools, pull them out if they feel it's right and send them to better schools or home schoolm this is saying something and standing up for what they feel is right.

At 8/23/2005 2:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlueJay, yet again,
Sodom and Gomorrah were burned, not desroyed by a flood. Just a clarification.
You seem like a good person, anonymous. It is polite of you to say that we should pray for gays instaid of killing them without mercy, as some of your Conservative brothers and sisters might have said. Not to say that I agree with you. I just think you seem so much nicer than many I have met on message boards.
Yet, I still think that a "Final Solution" to the "Homosexual Problem" might be tempting to you and your Conservative brothers and sisters if you were to assume control of the entire government.

At 8/23/2005 3:20 PM, Anonymous Singularity said...

I find it fascinating that the single comment posted defending Pat Robertson uses the "best defense is a good offense" theory. What exactly would we be defending ourselves against by assassinating Hugo Chavez? The threat of Venezuelans determining their own economic future? You specifically cite the threat of a Venezuelan attack against America. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

And thank you for the prayers, but I would feel much more gratified if I thought you were praying with me or even for me, instead of praying at me. The arrow of faith is not a weapon to wield in battle, but a compass to find truth.

At 8/23/2005 3:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlueJay speaking,

"What do you wanna do, BlueJay? U must have some ideas."

I have no idea what this means. I thought I made it clear that I was opposed to such handling of homosexuals, or any other group for that matter. I was just wondering if our Conservative friends might jump at the chance. No government shoud treat people that way. I can't believe that you think I might approve of that.

At 8/23/2005 3:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

BlueJay to Singularity,
I totally agree. I wish Pat Robertson would stop praying for people to die. It's obnoxious and Un-Christian. God only knows what this guy would do if he was in charge of our government. I'd rather not think about it.

At 8/23/2005 3:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Signing off. It's been nice talking/arguing with you.

At 8/23/2005 8:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

That's right bluejay, sodom and gomorrah were destroyed by God raining down fire on the cities. I said thatduring the time of Noah, men were so evil, God told Noah to make an ark to escape the flood, God sent to destroy the wicked who kept getting worse.These were divine acts of His judgement. And our part is to pray, and let Him do what He feels is right. No, we aren't to react in anger and strife to try to take things in our own hands.

At 8/23/2005 8:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Forgiveness is one of the best, though sometimes the hardest things we can do. Especially if our child has been molested by anyone, gay or straight. This is the most difficult time to forgive because that's our child. We forgive, but that doesn't mean that person escapes being dealt with by our law system, to protect other children and pay for the crime. We can forgive, pray for those who committed the crime, love our children through the healing process and protect them at all times either by our presence or the Lord's divine protection when they are away from us. There is healing and the ability to live a restored life.

At 8/23/2005 8:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

King David in some of his wars was commanded by God to go down and take the enemy. This was definitely an offensive strategy wouldn't you say? Not defensive. But he only went when God gave him the ok,knowing that God would give him the victory.

At 8/23/2005 10:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary's real problem appears to be myopia. She can't see more than she wants to see.

For instance, she's arguing with men on this board and yet Pat Robertson proclaimed that feminists were responsible for the Sept 11th attacks. If Mary thought about it, she might wonder if Mr Robertson might consider her too uppity for her disagreement. (asuming that the Mary here is the genuine article and not a garden variety troll)

Religion is another great example of being too nearsighted. The world is a big place. The death of a person in China rarely affects someone here in the US, the death of a mouse in China or a grasshopper, even less so. Now, expand that a hundred million billion times. The solar system is vast, the milky way galaxy a billion times more vast and the scope of the entire universe is really inconcievable to the human mind. Perhaps there is a God, but if there were, either God is not infinite, or God cares no more about a single human life than we might care about an electron orbiting an atom in our body. We are tiny; insignificant.

Mary is depressing because she is blind, like a mouse that gets taken by a hawk because she never thinks to look up. You'll never even give her the slightest doubt she might be wrong because she doesn't understand the question. You might as well be querying a toddler about differential equations. They might understand what a number is, but that's it.

At 8/23/2005 10:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As an addendeum to my previous post (having thought about it a moment) it occurrs to me that religion is a sin. Vanity. As vast as the universe is, how vain must we be to think we matter so much to God?

At 8/24/2005 9:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey anonymous at 10:31. You are the one who is depressing, plus negative, and assuming and very blind indeed.

At 8/24/2005 11:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:44. I think you are looking in a mirror. 10:31's comment doesn't seem vain to me, just depressing. He admits that our race is a spec in the universe, that we are so tiny and that God has created so much, that we can't really be that important. I find it humbling to think about. You, on the other hand, attempted to argue his statement by simply saying he must be vain for suggesting it. That doesn't even make sense! Even if you forget about the rest of the universe for a minute, you gotta admit the world is a huge place. I totally get what he's saying. You, on the other hand, want to cling to what you think you know and therefore shout that he must be wrong. That's definetely vain. But you also imply you know the mind of God when you say he must be wrong and that's just... Wow. Inconcievably arrogant. I dunno. I think what he said is something I'm gonna have to think about a bit.

At 8/24/2005 9:15 PM, Anonymous rahnle said...

Anon(s?) who has been praying for us, thanks for your well-wishing. I, too, hope (and pray) that God will grant us all more wisdom and happiness. I hope you would pray for me in the same way whether I agreed with you on political topics of the day or not. I don't believe your prayer is going to change my views, but who knows, I may be proven wrong.

Mary, if you are still reading, I guess you must have noticed that your interview made a lot of people upset. Mostly we are worried and a bit frightened. But you say something was lost in the translation, so maybe some things you said came across differently than you meant them. I am worried by the bit where you are quoted as saying that "Most [Muslims] are very harsh. There's no tenderness or love" right after you say that the only Muslims you have actually met are nice people. I'd like to know what makes you think this. I might add that all the Muslims I have actually met are nice people, too, and as loving as those I know of other faiths. I know that there are hate-filled people in the world who call themselves Muslim, just as there are hate-filled people who call themselves Christian. I don't believe that the true essence of either religion is represented by these folks.

Those who disagree with Mary, your name-calling and self-importance makes all your facts worthless. A few people took the time to say something well-considered, but most of you simply vented your rage in a manner exactly contrary to the spirit of dialogue that this blog is intended to promote. Calling names isn't going to win you any points from anyone and might just drive away the people you need most.

Rose, thanks for the interviews. We need to break through the deadlock of political dialogue in this country, and you are going beyond the call of duty on that. Three cheers.

If anyone is interested, I am Christian, a progressive, an American, and just one more human being trying to make my way in this world like everyone else.

At 8/25/2005 6:23 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good morning, what a beautiful day.
More rain that was needed is again refreshing the air, causing the grass to spring back to green after the weeks of drought.Thank You LORD.

At 8/25/2005 6:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Rahnle,
God bless you.
Father, Your word says, "if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to all. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does." Father, I ask for Your wisdom for myself, Rahnle, and any others who want it. Thank You, Abba, Daddy. In Jesus name I pray, Amen.

At 8/25/2005 10:11 AM, Blogger ChristStain said...

I renounced christianity years and have been the happiest in my life ever. it is the biggest pile of horsecrap ever. My lunatic parents rammed the junk down my throat and i am sorry to say it took me till i was 31 to flush the poop out of my mind.

People like Mary are the kind of people who force it down other people's throats. Christianity is not a religion of love, peace or anything of the sort. it is a mind control system of hate, bigotry and backwardness.

I'm thrilled that Christians voted for bush, finally we are getting to see what kind of people they are.

At 8/25/2005 12:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bah, you ain't seen nothing yet. We in europe pay some 1.1 euros per litre! That might translate to $4.5 per gallon... Just wait. You're gonna face the reality someday.

At 8/25/2005 1:21 PM, Blogger morticia said...

85% of Americans identify themselves as "Christian." I'm a member of a teensy minority of total nonbelievers. The point, though, is that roughly half of the vote in 2004 went to Bush, and roughly half went to Kerry. This disproves the assumption that all "Christians" voted for Bush. They plainly did not. What this proves is that there are many different flavors of "Christian," and just as it's been throughout history, there is huge disparity in the definition of the word "Christian," in what it actually means to be one and how the teachings of Jesus are interpreted and applied. It also means that no one owns the word "Christian" or holds the patent on "Christianity."

At 8/26/2005 2:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm so glad to see people like Mary depending on "men of god like Pat Robertson" for their world view.

Men who call for the assasination of elected leaders of oil rich foreign countries.

Of course Mary LOL'd at my previous post where I pointed out that these people aren't really too concerned with god but are more interested in power. That was the day before Pat Robertson expressed his god given opinion.

What do you think, Mary? Whom would Jesus assasinate?

At 8/27/2005 2:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My name is Stan.

The ONLY people on here who have posted that they support evil and violence are those who support bush and his war.

The US has unleashed the most sophisticated killing machines known to mankind on Iraq and it citizens. The horror is almost unbelieveable.

I pray daily for the people who do not have the things I have - clean water, fresh food, and warm shelter.

In the case of Iraq, the army has destroyed entire cities and their infastructure, leading to complete human suffering. This is what the army brought to iraq. Pssst, that is what armies do - they DESTROY. It's pretty hard to do anything else with guns...

Why aren't more people on here writing letters to ask their congressperson why their kids have not enlisted in this "noble cause"?

You do realize they amost every other country in the world ahs pulled their troops out of Iraq becuase people do not like war, it is only forced on them via fear and lies. Tell us why the rest of the 6 BILLION + people in the world do not support this bloodshed?

At 8/27/2005 4:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was deeply disturbed by Rev. Robertson call to assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Such statements are in direct contradiction with the teachings of Jesus. Blessed are the Peacemakers is His admonition.
Following Rev. Robertson train of thought will lead us to ask, who will Jesus bomb next?
Rev. Robertson, what do you think about yourself first, as an American or as a Christian?
Petty nationalism is a curse from which Jesus, is wanting to set us free. As Christian leaders we are admonished, Rom 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Nationality is inconsequential and irrelevant for the most part, Heb 11:14 For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own.
Heb 11:15 And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city.

Praying for peace

Andy Ortiz

At 8/27/2005 6:03 PM, Blogger WHT said...

I noticed that no one mentioned the concept of Peak Oil anywhere in this post or the comments. So there, I mentioned it.


At 8/27/2005 9:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is amazing to read what peple say about the Bible in this blog who have absolutely no knowledge of the Bibles origin and its fate through history. Without knowing Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek and reading ALL the books of the Bible one would get a very eronious understanding of what it says. Not to mention understanding what is said in the bible in the context of the culture and the politics that existed at the time. Without that one would get a very inaccurate understanding of what it says. And listening to Falwel and Robertson would give one a very erronious view of the Bible since they rely only on the King James version which is full of mistakes and is missing many books or Gospels like the Gospel according to Phillip and the Gospel according to Thomas. The role of Mary Magdalene. The fact that the parts written by Paul werte in Greek a language which has three words for love, each with a different meaning, where English only has one word. The fact that the pagan Emperor Constantine refused his whole life to be Baptised and was only baptised on his death bed while in a coma, but his was the final deciding word in what books were included in the Bible and which were excluded. After all he was the Emperor and if you disagreed he had the power to crucify you or send you to be fed to the lions in the Coloseum on his whim. That the most interesting thing about Jesus was that he was never a Christian and was his whole life a Jew. That what he had created was a more benevolent form of Judeism and that we were to dispense basically with the old law. As a matter of fact he pretty much dispensed with the ten commandment in favoer of only two, basically to love God with every part of your being and to love others as you love yourself. It is amazing to me that Christians today follow the Old Testament when it is clear that Jesus had dispensed with much of. That in the New Testament there is not one mention of homosexuality, or abortion. There is no mention of people with diseases being condemed. As a matter of fact Jesus was condemed by the Jewish priest for helping the sick since they believed that the wages of sin was death and was punishment from God, and that those people were unclean. An attitude that Jesus obviously didn't have. Jesus tended to those who were outcasts in the Jewish religion.

At 8/28/2005 12:48 AM, Anonymous from europe said...

Just a remark..... Mary Fowler in the interwiev and the Mary Fowler as the commentator arent the same person. Somebody have taken her place here and writing under her name(some religious mentor i guess). Too big difference between texts complexity and argumentatios level. Sorry for the english(my native language is estonian).But even i can see this difference.

At 8/28/2005 11:25 AM, Blogger E.C. said...

Thanks, "from Europe." I agree with what you said about the identity of "Mary Fowler." And your English isn't much worse than the English of some of the native speakers posting here....

At 8/28/2005 11:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To those who say Jesus didn't address homosexuality.
Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Jesus said this:

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus paid the price for all our sin. He received stripes (lashes) to pay for healing, deliverance. So receive what He has already purchased by the sacrifice of His own life. He now sits at the right hand of the Father where He's ever interceding for us.

At 8/28/2005 12:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the early '60's during the days of the "former" Soviet Union, Russian Premier Nikita Kruschev pounded his shoe on the podium of the United Nations and shouted to the West, "We will bury you!" Fearing an invasion from the Reds, America proceeded to build the most awesome military machine in history. Unfortunately, we forgot to guard our political homefront from being taken over by socialist - communist - liberal activists who would gain office and destroy American law by process of gradually installing the Communist agenda within our legal system and separate branches of government. The Communist program from the start has been one which sees their revolution of 1917 succesful only upon total domination of the world. (See Brain Washing, A Synthesis of the Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics) Americans, being the most naive people among the nations, now believe that Communism is dead because the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain have been removed. The ironic truth is that Communism has just switched names to become more "politically correct". Today it is called international democracy. The reason that the Berlin Wall came crashing down is not because Communism is dead but because they have achieved the planned agenda to communize the West, including America. Washington D.C. has indeed become part of the New World Order of atheist governments. With the last vestiges of Christian law having been removed from "American government" over the last twenty years, there is no longer a threat of resistance against world Communism. In reality, "American government" became part of the Iron Curtain, thus there was no more need for the likes of a Berlin Wall. Once again, in their foolishness, the American public has believed the lies of their "leaders" who applaud "the fall of Communism", while they have sold out the country to anti-Christian, anti-American statutes and regulations on the federal, state, and local levels.


At 8/29/2005 9:37 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Anonymous 12:21 said: "In reality, "American government" became part of the Iron Curtain, thus there was no more need for the likes of a Berlin Wall. Once again, in their foolishness, the American public has believed the lies of their "leaders" who applaud "the fall of Communism", while they have sold out the country to anti-Christian, anti-American statutes and regulations on the federal, state, and local levels."

Ronald Reagan was in office when The Wall came down. Do you include him on the roster of "lying leaders?"

At 8/29/2005 10:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, Ronald Reagan, was not a lying leader. He was honest and did much for this country.

At 8/29/2005 1:34 PM, Anonymous deacon of the deaz said...

One thing I personally find fascinating is that right now, here in the U.S., "God's Party", the Republican Party - has control of the executive branch with President Bush,a majority in the Senate and in the House of Representatives, a Judicial advantage on the high court and working for one in the lower courts, a couple of nice media outlets such as Fox News, and talk radio.

Though, I know for a fact that Jesus was neither Republican, nor did He personally in all His awesome words (done in read in most modern translations) ever mention either abortion or homosexuality - our primary divisive and conclusive issues; I have a funny suspicion that these powerful men of God haven't yet overturned Roe v. Wade, nor ended the perceived blight of homosexuality.

I wonder why this is? I would think that their constituents would wonder why all their great Republicans haven't really done anything to change the social issues that they use as platform to get into power. I would think they might wonder about what might truly interest these powerhouses of faith?

Just a thought.

At 8/29/2005 1:35 PM, Anonymous deacon of the deaz said...

of course, you can win the argument and not answer the question by accusing me of being a communist or homosexual, of which I am neither.

At 8/29/2005 2:35 PM, Anonymous dharma said...

the only conversation I heard was "fill 'er up because it will be 3 dollars a gallon tomorrow after Katrina!"

At 8/29/2005 6:29 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Anonymous 10:31 said: "No, Ronald Reagan, was not a lying leader. He was honest and did much for this country."

What about Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2?

At 8/30/2005 6:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read this again.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and

Jesus said this in Matthew 5:17.
In His Word, He said thou shalt not lust after a woman to commit adultery with her. Thou shalt do no murder. Abortion is murder. That word was not in use back then. The Levitical law explained thoroughly about same sex relations and killing of the unborn. In Jesus time on earth, most he ministered to were Jewish and knew the Levitical Laws. They were taught what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. This was enough for most to abstain from that due to their upbringing. Any Jewish people who caused a woman to lose her unborn were put to death. Those who had sexual relationships with same sex persons were cut off. They had to leave so it would not spread to others.

Why did God have to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Because they refused to repent. They thought they were right.
The entire Word of God is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting. Peter, Paul, James, Jude, these were all speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. They were going to Gentiles, who didn't know the Levitical Law, or to Jewish people who were doing what the Gentiles were doing. This is why they taught what God said about "26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Jesus fulfilled the Law and said, all the commandments are summed up in this. "To love the Lord you God, with all your heart, mind, and strength. And to love your neighbor as yourself." If you love God with your whole being, you don't want to go against what He said. And if you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't want to murder them, covet or lust after their wife. You won't want to steal from them or hurt them in anyway. "19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven."

At 8/30/2005 6:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am going to pray for President Bush instead of complain about what others Presidents did or didn't do. If I want to live a "peaceful, quiet life in all godliness, holiness, and honesty," then I have to pray, interceed, give thanks, request from God, for kings and all those in authority. For this is good, and this is what pleases God, our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth; for there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6

At 8/30/2005 7:47 AM, Anonymous deacon of the deaz said...

Anonymous, you need a name so you can be properly addressed.

You do very well on the typical Christian response, but in a circular argument you still miss the point. The point is not the validity of moral issues against homosexuality and abortion, the point is that these two issues are the platform and the only things that are spoken against by most on the Christian fundamentalist side, when Jesus obviously spoke more on helping the poor, the widows, and visiting people in prison - not to mention He spent a good deal of time speaking out against the religious fundamentalists of His day for they were only focused on greed for money and judging others.

I think that we would be well within the Scriptural confines if we worried not so much about what is happening in other people's bedrooms, but concerned ourselves more with what is happening in our boardrooms where people are doing unsavory things that are also against things that Christ spoke about.

Praying for Bush is admirable and I pray for him daily, he needs it. As do the individuals who face reality every day and are more often than not judged, rather than loved.

Also, one must remember, if we follow the LAW we have to follow all of it, so not only do you have to abstain from homosexuality and greed and sexual immorality, you have to wear clothing that only has one thread type and you need to find livestock to take to a priest to atone for your sins. Obviously, Jesus came to fulfill that and to make grace a better commodity than works.

It is my belief that most Christian fundamentalists are all about works, trying to prove God's existence and prove others wrong so that they can be holy.

When all you need is to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died for the sins that we keep railing against - and committing in secret. For all have sinned and come short of Him.

At 8/30/2005 7:51 AM, Anonymous dharma said...

hold it, isn't the NIV the version of the Bible that fundamentalists say doesn't count because there were homosexuals among the translators?

heck if I know.

At least some of us are reading the Bible.

I'm still looking for "all shall bless Halliburton" in there.

It's got to be in there somewhere.

At 8/30/2005 8:01 AM, Anonymous deacon of the deaz said...

I just think many (not all Thank God) in the church are still parallel with the Pharisees, looking for things to point the finger at so they can distract themselves from their own shortcomings.

The old mote in the eye. I always think it is best to dine with the sinners and show them love and a better way.

We will not end abortion or homosexuality with our signs and our shouts of derision. "God hates fags" is just another proof to homosexuals that they are unloved and it gives them courage, not the other way around.

I spent many years in pro-life lines and at abortion clinics and I heard more evil and more talk of killing and death in those circles than I ever heard at work amongst the so-called "sinners".

For me, it became necessary to follow my heart and God to areas where life is more like His Word and more like His example.

At 8/30/2005 10:13 AM, Anonymous deacon of the deaz said...

these type of message boards and opportunities to voice opinion remind me of how much I am grateful that America is a democracy and not a theocracy. After all, even though some of us follow the Word of God, it is obvious that we wouldn't want anyone to impose their version of following that Word upon us.

History has shown that the same Bible has brought about good things through man, evil things through man, and a plethora of denominations that all say they have the "true interpretation" of that same Word of God.

This is why freedom of religion is so important and if you have freedom of religion, you also have freedom to have no religion. This just comes with the territory.

I believe that state sanctioned religion is wrong and is the reason people came to America in the first place, to have the ability to worship as they wanted to with other people who were worshipping as they wanted to.

If we state sanction religion and make it law - then we essentially have the Christian version of the Taliban - a theocracy that allows no dissent and no freedom.

At 8/30/2005 7:41 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Anonymous 6:34 AM said:

"I am going to pray for President Bush instead of complain about what others Presidents did or didn't do."

But Anonymous, you DID complain. You said: "the American public has believed the lies of their "leaders" who applaud "the fall of Communism", while they have sold out the country..."

I was am wondering which leaders, exactly, you meant. So far, you've excluded Reagan (who took credit for the Wall coming down, and for the general downfall of "communism") and Bush 2. Please name the "leaders" you mean. Otherwise your possibly very important message is lost and without meaning.

At 8/30/2005 7:47 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Pardon the typo. I certainly didn't mean "was am". I meant "am." Mea culpa. Fingers and mind not going at the same pace.

At 8/31/2005 8:31 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Okay, folks--here's the $64,000 philosophical conundrum question of the week (sorry about those fifty-dollar words--go find a dictionary for free if you're confused): Is "God" named Allah, or is "He" named Jehovah? Judging by the wrath "He" has rained down on New Orleans and environs, turning it into a Louisiana Baghdad (or Fallujah) with third-world death and chaos and bodies floating in the streets, one might be tempted infer that "His" name is "Allah" and "He" is getting revenge. On the other hand, the huge (and ever so timely) distraction from the Cindy Sheehan Problem, and the Plame Problem, and the Downing Street Memo Problem, all of which are shrinking from front-page prominence with every passing minute, without a doubt has George W. Bush dancing a jig of joy.

At 9/01/2005 8:17 AM, Anonymous deacon of the deaz said...

morticia, the answer is obvious.

If you are Christian fundamentalist, the hurricane is a natural event loosely translated by the "prince of the power of the air", Satan or simply a natural phenom. Clearly not revenge by a false god.

If you are Muslim fundamentalist, it could be that Allah is finally just ticked off enough to reign some pain, but then what is happening to them is Satan.

So if it happens to you, it is the devil, if it happens to someone else, it is "God", depending on which side you are on.

If you are Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell, Katrina is definitely due to homosexuality, though there were so many families down there, it is hard to really pin that one.

I think in the short term, getting our minds back of the things you mentioned will benefit Mr. Bush, but in the longterm . . .

At 9/01/2005 10:55 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Deacon, thanks for your thoughtful answer. I like the cut of your jib. The question was, of course, rhetorical, meant to trigger some sort of reflection on the utter futility, hubris and illogic of any particular self-identified group claiming "God's" favor.

At 9/01/2005 8:25 PM, Anonymous Patriot said...

For more information on the Louisiana deal, you can go to http://www.kimclement.com and read about New Orleans from Houston, TX.

At 9/02/2005 11:41 AM, Blogger morticia said...

I checked out this Kim Clement fellow's website. His "prophecy" that a flood would hit New Orleans was full of wrath-of-God stuff against the sinners and unbelievers of the city. Anyone with eyes, though, can plainly see that by a vast majority it's the poor and black of New Orleans who are absorbing "God's" wrath, which is hitting old people, sick people and children with special fury. Guess that'll teach 'em to go around being black, poor, old, sick or young!

At 9/02/2005 1:31 PM, Anonymous Patriot said...

As usual, you only read part and went off half-cocked. Read the letter by Kim Clement after the Word of prophecy. It was addressed to Servants and Gatekeepers of New Orleans. The spiritual leaders. Read on down before you go jumping off and doing the misrepresenting.

At 9/02/2005 1:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


On July 22nd, 2005, while in Texas ministering, I received a word from the Spirit which was spoken publicly at Christian Life Center in Humble, TX. Here is the word:

Servants of God; Gatekeepers of New Orleans:

"Enough of past curses reminding you of yesterday’s failures. Enough of New Orleans and its treachery. Enough of stealing the Ark of the Covenant from my people just because you had those surrounding you that had no faith. Caleb said "we are able to take this land;" Joshua said "we are able to take this land." But ten voices arose against the Lord God. And they would stone my servant Moses and say let us stone them and raise up another leader so that we may go back to Egypt. Would you go back to your dung? Would you go back to your vomit?

O New Orleans God speaks to you from Houston tonight and says enough of this! For a judgment is coming says the Spirit of the Lord, and I will take the men that have stood in faith, raise them above the flood that shall destroy those that constantly bicker and stand against my servant Moses, or my servant Bilbo. I want you to understand there are great men in New Orleans that have faith, but you have been set aside not to lose but to win. Enough of this! For I will take the curses and the bodies will even rise and they will come forth on the water, but I will keep you and the stench of death will only last a few days. And then what I promised two years ago will come to pass for August, September and October of this year I made a promise it would happen, and God said be strengthened now, be strengthened now, for enough is enough says the Lord."

Prophecy from 7-22-05- Pastor Richard Rodriguez (Host of the meetings held in Houston, TX) Christian Life Center- 6650 Rankin Rd. Humble, TX 77396 (281)-319-4673 www.clc-church.com

Very seldom have I have been given the duty of delivering a word that entails judgment to a region or to a person, so when I heard what God spoke in July, I realized that this was going to be an extremely serious catastrophe. I was disturbed that night but kept my feelings to myself, wondering how I should pray about this. I love New Orleans, and had been there a number of times. My dear friend, Pastor Garland Bilbo, who had hosted my ministry a number of times was present in the meeting that night, and God even referred to him in the prophecy. His family had been a target of attack during the eighties and suffered persecution from religious forces during the Nineties due to a public scandal in their family. This prophecy is one of the most accurate that I have ever been given and yet it almost sounded like God was about to deal with the Gatekeepers and spiritual leaders of New Orleans rather than the sinners of that City.

A part of the prophecy that concerned me was the fact that the flood would destroy those that constantly bicker and stand against my servant Moses (or my servant Bilbo.) I did not truly believe that these people would be destroyed in the flood but rather the waters would rid the City of the curses and bring an end to discord and divisive leaders. For God to refer to "Moses" spoke volumes to me. Moses was taking the people from a mindset of captivity and oppression into a land of "PROMISE" and yet the people (God's people) were bent on going back or even destroying the "voice" that represented God's intention for a better and glorious life on earth for the slaves who were actually born to be Kings. Remember Israel went from being Kings to becoming slaves because THEY SOLD THEIR PROPHETIC VOICE - JOSEPH. Joseph represented the prophetic voice amidst the family of God - He dreamed and saw the future. Eventually they sold this prophetic voice to the slave traders not realizing that wherever they sent the prophetic voice, they were destined to follow.

God is a God of love, and there is no doubt that we are living in a period of grace. However, I also noted that when a fig tree was not producing fruit, Jesus cursed it and it died from the roots. A root is defined as "the basic cause, source or origin of something; a descendant - The root of David; The essential nature of something." Sometimes God has to cut off the source of "nourishment" to bring an end to a fruitless tree. What disturbed me even further was the fact that God used the following words to describe the depth of this act of nature; "I will take the curses and the bodies will even rise and they will come forth on the water." I realized that He was saying that the curses would rise, and as a result human bodies would rise and come forth on the water. I know that the two are related because curses bring death and God was saying that it was the end of an era of "death" over the region of New Orleans. Water speaks of judgment but also speaks of cleansing. "Enough of this, enough of this" was proclaimed by God and he was refusing them access to the past "vomit" of criticism, tearing each other down and divisiveness. Louisiana was the focus of attention, nationally and internationally in the Eighties and even the Nineties, and God was saying that he would not allow this to continue; it only produces death.

In an attempt to bring revival to Louisiana and the Nation, a wonderful group of people in Baton Rouge prophetically proclaimed their prayer to God and began to draw young people together annually in a gathering called "Deluge". I don't think they realized the depth of their cries to God. I ministered only once and my message that night was "The other side". It's time to cross over to the other side and the only way that Jesus could get his Disciples to the other side was across the water through a raging storm. The day that I was to fly into Baton Rouge I was stranded at the airport with my wife for hours because of heavy rains in Baton Rouge. We arrived at the meeting just on time, and even though some of my team did not make it in because of the outpouring of rain, we ministered to thousands of young people. I went to my hotel that night realizing that they were prophesying to Louisiana just before the famous "Mardi Gras."
The word Deluge means "A severe flood, a great quantity of something arriving at the same time; from the latin word deluvium, the word "diluere" means "WASH AWAY."

During my prophetic utterance in July, I stated the time of the year that this would take place: "August, September and October of this year."

I had no joy hearing of the devastations as news came to America of the dreaded "Katrina" and I found myself in a state of mourning and tears. On the Sunday night before the hurricane hit Louisiana and the surrounding States, I was conducting my Hollywood meeting in California, and played the prophecy to the people and we gathered around the altar and prayed for God's mercy. I think He was more merciful than we realize.

I pray for strength upon the people of these States, especially those who have lost everything. God said to "be strengthened".


Kim Clement


At 9/02/2005 1:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The innocent seem to suffer because of the acts of evil men. Yous say what about the children,blacks, poor, elderly."
What about the thousands of children, women, and men who were slaughtered by the Saddam Regime?? And we are supposed to sit over here in America, and bellyache and complain about everything. If you did that in Iraq, you would have been among the slaugthered. So why not just shut up your bellyaching for once in your life????!~!!!

At 9/02/2005 1:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, and by the way, this is NOT President Bush's fault, but you probably think so, huh?

At 9/02/2005 8:55 PM, Blogger morticia said...

Wow, Anonymous 1:37 and Patriot--that really clears everything up! God's angry at the "servants and gatekeepers," so He punishes and kills a bunch of poor folk who don't have the means or money to evacuate the city! Furthermore, it's for their own good! God is obviously a mean drunk with a bad hangover.

Anonymous 1:40 and 1:46--You say: "The innocent seem to suffer because of the acts of evil men." I couldn't agree more. Saddam was an evil man who caused incalculable suffering in Iraq, torturing, filling mass graves and gassing his own people. So: Who are the evil men who cause the suffering over here? Just answer the question, please, without any bellyaching. I'd really like to hear your opinion.

At 9/03/2005 10:03 AM, Anonymous Bob Kincaid said...

Leave Mary and her cohorts to reap the whirlwind they sow. There is no hope for them. Any attempt to dialogue with them is a fool's errand. When you realize that people like Mary actually, literally, really-and-for-truly believe that the world's in the mess it's in because seven thousand years ago a naked proto-woman had a conversation with a chatty water mocassin, you realize that there's nothing to be said to these superstitious relics from the Dark Ages.

The question for the normal people is how we minimize the Religion Industry's impact on our body politic. They will always be present to one degree or another. They were around 20% of the electorate in the last election. We must reduce their impact by increasing the particiaption of the normal people.

I'm not willing anymore to give these people any sort of slack. They and their ilk are directly responsible for putting people in power whose sole aim is the destruction of the America created by our largely agnostic, highly enlightened forebears.

My Christian upbringing tells me I must forgive these evil people their trespasses. But it also tells me the remission of sin is conditioned upon the repentance of the sinner. Thusfar, I've heard no repentance from their quarter. Hence, no forgiveness.

If we do not fight them with every ounce of passion we can muster, Mary and her decidedly religio-fascist, persecution-complex crybaby cronies will destroy the Constitution and our country wholesale.


At 9/03/2005 11:42 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Bob--You're right, of course, that any attempt at "dialogue" is futile. But the effort is not entirely for naught. Like ugly debris and chaos exposed as floodwaters recede, much is revealed.

At 9/03/2005 5:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

When people are willingly ignorant, rebellious, stiff-necked, and disobedient, all that's left is praying for mercy. LORD have mercy on these, for they know not what they do. Open their eyes, bless them LORD, with true knowledge of Yourself.

LORD, now, I pray for those devasted by the hurricane. Forgive our forefathers for the sin of having slaves and treating them with disrespect, abuse, and unfairness in their wages. Let these people, many who have lost family members, loved ones, and all thier belongings, be so blessed, with better jobs, better houses to live in, and respect. Thank You Father, for being Righteous, loving, full of tendermercies, and justice. In the precious Name of Jesus.....Amen

At 9/03/2005 5:23 PM, Anonymous Patriot said...

"Blessed is the Nation, who's God is the LORD." When a nation begins to turn away from God, that nation by it's disobedience opens the door for curses, which Satan happily goes about to do using anyone who yields to his deception, lies, and trickery.

James 1:13, "When temptations, testings, and trials come, no one should say, "God is tempting, testing, or trying me.' For God does not tempt, test or try anyone with evil, but each is tempted by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

At 9/03/2005 5:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

James - The Bible in Basic English

What is the cause of wars and fighting among you? is it not in your desires which are at war in your bodies?

You are burning with desire, and have not your desire, so you put men to death; you are full of envy, and you are not able to get your desire, so you are fighting and making war; you have not your desire, because you do not make request for it.

You make your request but you do not get it, because your request has been wrongly made, desiring the thing only so that you may make use of it for your pleasure.

O you who are false to God, do you not see that the friends of this world are not God's friends? Every man desiring to be a friend of this world makes himself a hater of God.

Or does it seem to you that it is for nothing that the holy Writings say, The spirit which God put into our hearts has a strong desire for us?

But he gives more grace. So that the Writings say, God is against the men of pride, but he gives grace to those who make themselves low before him.

At 9/03/2005 5:34 PM, Anonymous Patriot said...

We need to start looking now at the blessings that are being given to the refugees. No more blame, no more anger, no complaining. These only cause strife and division. I am grateful for the Army,Marines, National Guard, Coast Guard, Red Cross, Samaritan's Purse, and so many more who are volunteering and giving. And I am grateful for President Bush, a man of God, a man of prayer, a man of compassion.

At 9/03/2005 10:24 PM, Blogger morticia said...

If George Bush is a man of God, prayer and compassion, then Alan Greenspan is a Chippendale dancer.

At 9/05/2005 6:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For those anonymous "Eye Opener" comments about Roger Baldwin (founder of the ACLU) that quote out of a book advertisement for Alan Sears (leader of a fundamentalist Christian front group trying to force their religion on all Americans under the guise of First Amendment rights), I suggest you instead get your information from Robert C. Cottrell, Professor of History and American Studies at California State University, Chico, who wrote a biography of Baldwin ( http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/baldwin.html)
that states:
"those affiliated with totalitarian organizations would not be allowed to serve on the ACLU board. The immediate target was the former-Wobbly and present Communist Party member, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn. An organizational "trial" of Flynn ensued, resulting in her ouster and establishing a pattern for anti-communist policies and programs that flourished during the Cold War."
" For the next several years, Baldwin sought to work for international human rights, producing a volume, A New Slavery, which condemned "the inhuman communist police state tyranny, forced labor." "

His worst offence, according to these kind Christian fundamentalists, is that Baldwin was acting to preserve international civil liberties under orders from such Americans as General Douglas McArthur, wanted these rights even for non-Christians and non-Americans.

Taking a random quote out of context and quoting from an advertisement from a Christian fundamentalist? Why do you think these kind of Christian fundamentalists are so afraid of the ACLU? Since when is protecting your American rights under the constitution Anti-American?

And all Christians (fundamentalist or other) who think i am anti-Christian? I would defend your right to practice your religion as an American to the death, but try to force your religion down my American throat? You will get that fight aimed at you.

At 9/06/2005 12:47 PM, Anonymous Sherry said...

Wow, maybe I shouldn't have tried to read all the comments at one sitting! I do believe however that a few points were missed.

1. The first amendment protects this country from one religion being the national religion. (As it had been in England, the only recognized church being the Church of England.) The terms 'God' and 'Religion' are two completely different things. 'God' is a term used to describe a superior being/higher authority. 'Religion' is the method in which the higher entity is worshipped. America was founded on the idea that there is a God, and the principles that ANY and all Gods would promote.

2. For those who have taken to heart the words of our president and other "authority figures", these people are merely human. Facts are always facts and opinions change. Statements by these people are their opinion. (Have you noticed at the beginning of the 700 Club there is a disclaimer that states that the OPINIONS expressed in this program are not necessarily those of the television station?) That is because the program is based on opinion, not fact. One must always look at all the facts before forming their opinion.
3. I am glad that Mary agreed to be interviewed. She probably didn't realize how much feedback that she would receive, though. But as previously stated, all the negative feedback, will probably send her further into her own ideals. It is hard to accept that something that you have believed for years could possibly be wrong. All the facts presented will not change her opinion. The only real way that most people change their opinion is by a personal hardship being placed upon them-one that contradicts their prior belief. For those of us that are on the opposing viewpoint, we can take comfort in the fact that her opinion is in the minority.

And for Rose, this is great, thank you, you have provided a genunine forum for people to express their opinion and not have to be part of a group. Hope to see you in my town soon!

At 9/09/2005 11:18 AM, Blogger morticia said...

Yeah. Me, too!

At 9/13/2005 10:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nobody has discovered anything in the genetic code to indicate hard-wiring for homosexuality. That is speculation, but not fact. In fact the scientist who claimed to have done so has been discredited (and charged with plagiarism).

Also, genetic code "hard wiring" still wouldn't predispose anyone automatically to anything even if it were proven! That's not how sexuality works, it's much more complex than that.

And there's the obvious idea that why those hormones we absolutely know for a fact are always running through everyone's personal biochemistry and have a documented absolute impact on brain chemistry and behavior, are things some people don't seem to feel impulses around (you know, all that procreative hardware in each of us, especially women)is a far, far bigger question that absolutely suggests an as-yet-unfound tiny glitch in the genome code might have virtually no impact at all of itself on sexual orientation.

There are great big fat myths on both sides of this question.

At 9/16/2005 1:08 PM, Blogger morticia said...

We're splitting hairs if we get sidetracked in the "genetic code" argument when we're talking about homosexuality. We could wander there forever, like Dr. Livingstone. But anyone who's spent a lot of time around gay people, men in particular, as I did back in my "fag-hag" days, knows for a fact that it's bred in the bone (as it were).

At 9/23/2005 10:24 AM, Anonymous Xenon said...

I would normally take people like Mary Fowler with a grain of Kelp, if it weren't for the fact that from the DipStick at the Top of The Dog Pile, Dubya Bush, to the Bottom, the religious fanatics, want to impose their view of reality, the Modus Operendi being the over-riding of the US Constitution. This is being accomplished threw voter fraud and stacking the courts with Ultra-Conservative Judges. Most sane people, even Essene type Christians want to keep god out of our pants and bedrooms. Jesus would be appalled by what the “Followers” have done in his name. It is very simple, RESIST these people like Mary Fowler. They are replicating the same mentality of The Inquisition, where Herbalists and Mushroom eaters were burned at the stake for being non-believers. Galileo, Kepler, Bruno, Leary, Socrates, Joan of Arc, and even Einstein were hunted by religious fanatics. It is always the same. Logic and Science are scorned by the crackpots because it can actually contradict every one of their lame ideas. One does not need a Biblr to be a decent person. That comes from your Mom and Dad, and your conscience, not from a printed book. For me, if someone asks what do I believe in, I tell them “The Unified Field theory”, and that is usually the end of the conversation, unless they know what I am talking about, or they wish to know. Speaking of which, the concept of God vs The Devil is the biggest sham in the history of the planet, and perhaps is the Greatest Conspiracy Theory of Them All.

At 9/23/2005 11:12 AM, Anonymous Catherine said...

Hugo Chavez is not a dictator. He was democratically elected twice. The Bush administration has tried twice to throw him out of office by a coup. The people took to the streets by the hundreds of thousands protesting American involvement and control, basic bullying, in their own rights. My daughter was in Caracas and filmed the entire event, including interviews with many many of Venezuela's poor. Chavez is trying to secure the oil wealth of his country to provide services for the poor. The big oil whores of North America dont like this. Ask Pat Robertson why he is wealthy? A true Christian would give his money to the poor and live and look like Mother Theresa. Pat Robertson recently blamed Ellen Degeneres for the hurricane in Nawlins. How does he explain the current one heading right for Crawford, Texas??!!

At 9/23/2005 11:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"god" is a fiction. At best, a metaphor. At worst, a mental illness. But a fiction nonetheless.

What more efficient way is there to control and extort the masses than to evangelize them via mass media, convince them of the existence of two possible "afterlifes," and then threaten them with the "bad" afterlife if they don't donate their hard-earned money to your organization as you command?

At 9/23/2005 11:45 AM, Blogger verbal assassin said...

I have a Bible verse for Mary Anti-Peace Fowler:

Luke 12:51-52
This is Jesus Speaking - Warning the cost of Discipleship

51: "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

52: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

In translation:

What? You Democrats really think I came here for peace on earth? I tell you, hells no. I came here to bring division.

The democrats against the republican, the republicans against the democrats. Whites against blacks and Mary Fowler agasint all living creatures who aren't Christian.

And I laugh at you people, suffering from the one we call Bush, who is in power and ramming the Bible up our azz without even knowing one single bible verse.

Trust me Mary Fowl Mouth Hitler, Your God is Bush.


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